Bayonetta 1 & 2

mattavelle1

IT’S GOT A DEATH RAY!
Moderator
WOW!!!

If Bayo2 continues to be as epic as it's first boss battle then damn is this gonna be freakin awesome!!!

EDIT: Oh YEAh and I'd you wanna see the results from my last game there on my Miiverse page.

I think I for way more stones then @theMightyME shouldn't come as no surprise tho right @juegosmajicos being a stonemason an all lol.
 
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TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
Kamiya references his other games in the first Bayo as well....

In fact in almost every game P* makes there are small nods to his other games....

I've always enjoyed that about P* games.... The inside jokes and subtle references for the fans....
 

mattavelle1

IT’S GOT A DEATH RAY!
Moderator
Kamiya references his other games in the first Bayo as well....

In fact in almost every game P* makes there are small nods to his other games....

I've always enjoyed that about P* games.... The inside jokes and subtle references for the fans....
I LOVER IT in Bayo1 when you enter the Gates of Hell.

And Rodin says and I Quote...

"Hey Bayonetta I got one for ya. *whatta ya buyin?* Heard that in a video game once"

Obviously referencing the merchant from RE4. And I laughed and thought it was fantastic of him, the shop keeper to say that.

I love those little touches aswell @LightsaberBlues
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Man Bayo2 is freaking amazing! I'm not a hype guy, but this game man so freakin bad to the bone.

@Goodtwin we are at different sides of the coin on which is better. Bayo2 while not mopping the floor with 1. I consider it much better.
I played through Bayonetta 2 again over the last week. Getting my trophies up to Gold or Platinum status. It was even better the second time through. I think part of the reason it felt shorter to me, was the lack of deaths. Same goes for the boss battles seeming more intense on the original, because I was dying so many times trying to beat them. Climax 2 is definitely easier than Normal was in Bayonetta, but besides that, I was so much better prepared with Bayonetta 2 thanks to playing the first game. I look forward to playing it on third climax, but I may go back to the first game and see about getting my medals up to Gold status.

Its rare thing to play a game multiple times, and have it get better and better, but thats what Platinum seems to have done. Its kind of like with Monster Hunter, it can be daunting at first to get into it, but once you get the hang of things, you can become consumed by it. Bayonetta 1+2 is my game of the year vote. I still think my previous criticisms are valid, but they dont keep me from enjoying the hell out of it. By todays standards, the difficulty is brutal. This games combat is deep, and with the higher difficulties, will punish button mashing. I would almost rate this game with two scores, one where I docks some points for the somewhat dated visuals, limited number of content outside of the main quest, and the failure to hold tighter to the 60fps. This is where my 8/10 score would come from. On the other hand, personal preference and how much I am enjoying the game right now, I would easily say 9.5/10.

Its just so much fun to play, that those other shortcomings I mentioned hold less weight. They dont hinder the experience, and its rare to really talk up a game on the basis that its "fun to play." Its not a good game because its got tons of content, or the graphics are spectacular, or because of an impressive virtual world that is huge. Nope, you can have all those things, and the game still may not be fun to play. Bayonetta 1+2 is all about being fun to play. Its akin to Mario in a way. If you look at Mario, there is no rhyme or reason to the levels, they dont have to make sense. They arent trying to recreate the world as we know it. The only thing that matters is the "fun to play", and Platinum has a similar formula with Bayonetta.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
I have restarted playing Bayonetta, and I will say this, after spending over 20 hours in Bayonetta 2, Bayonetta's combat does indeed feel a bit sluggish by comparison. They truly did refine the combat in Bayonetta 2, and even though they are both great games, Bayonetta 2 feels more responsive, and for a game that goes this fast, it just feels better to play.
 

mattavelle1

IT’S GOT A DEATH RAY!
Moderator
I have restarted playing Bayonetta, and I will say this, after spending over 20 hours in Bayonetta 2, Bayonetta's combat does indeed feel a bit sluggish by comparison. They truly did refine the combat in Bayonetta 2, and even though they are both great games, Bayonetta 2 feels more responsive, and for a game that goes this fast, it just feels better to play.
100% agree
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
@LightsaberBlues

Savor the flavor of Bayo2. Soooooo spectacular!
There is no time to savor anything.... This game comes rushing at you like a frieght train going about a million miles an hour....

It is constantly bashing you over the head again and again with it's pure awesomeness and neverending action....

It takes the formula seen in the first Bayo and cranks it up to eleventeen, then rips the fucking nob off so you can do nothing but sit back and enjoy the ride....

And that is just the first hour of the game....


*fastens his saftey belt*

Let's do this....

 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
Well that's a coincidence. The same day I start replaying the game, and finally start to really get a feel for enjoying it...

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/artic...y-day-4-best-3ds-best-wii-u-best-action-goty/

Gets our GOTY. I agree and would've voted for it - even before I really started to feel it "click" more today. The quality was always there, it was just me getting a feel for it. And the value is pretty high (not just two games for the price of one, but two games you can replay on various difficulties, plus the co-op).

Just next time, I'd like to actually vote. :p

[Might want to re-post that article on Monday. It'll get more views.]
 

Juegos

All mods go to heaven.
Moderator
View attachment 1638

The difficulty spike later in this level is bullshit, but there's always posing.
The first Bayo has some bad difficulty spikes, mostly with some select annoying enemies. The second Bayo fixes that problem, and feels more evenly challenging without any particularly stupidly annoying enemy, just unique ones.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
The first Bayo has some bad difficulty spikes, mostly with some select annoying enemies. The second Bayo fixes that problem, and feels more evenly challenging without any particularly stupidly annoying enemy, just unique ones.
That's damn good to hear. I was up past 2am last night on that level. The enemies weren't overly powerful, but the space was really claustrophobic, making the camera often go batshit (and the panther was just unlocked, so sometimes dodging into panther mode got me in trouble). Eventually, I just nickel and dimed it out (two hits, dodge, run; no overly flashy combos).

Back at it today...

View attachment 1642 WiiU_screenshot_TV_0157E.jpg
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
There are some enemies in Bayonetta that are just incredibly difficult. My reflexes aren't the fastest in the world, but there are a few enemies where your reaction times would need to be damn near superhuman to successfully dodge consistently. I had mostly Stone trophys in Bayonetta playing on normal diffiuclty the first time through. I have been able to go back and get the first 10 chapters up to gold and silver, but the final few chapters I will be lucky if I can even get bronze. Finishing them without using a bunch of items is very tough. Bayonetta 2 has much better balance, but 2nd Climax is definately easier than Normal mode was in Bayonetta, so it will be interesting when I go back and play Bayonetta 2 on Third Climax, should be a very tough challenge, but hopefully it maintains the tough but fair gameplay I enjoyed in 2nd Climax. Bayonetta 1+2 is by far the best game released on Wii U in 2014. Its not even close for me. Epic games.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
WiiU_screenshot_TV_0157E.jpg

Nothing to see here. Just a woman in a hair suit wearing gun shoes, with a katana and a bugle, standing around in space. Because Japan.
 
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EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
I'm working on 3 hours of sleep, because I decided I had to beat Bayonetta last night.

I had 8 chapters down, 8 to go. That last fight against Jeanne was beastly (QTE overload, though). Gracious and Glorious was...well, I'll get to that. Beat the Lumen Sage on the first try. Got to Jubileus. Forgot to load up on items. Got to the final climax. Running up the hair weave with maybe half a hit point of life left. I see the hand coming. Mis-time the jump. Game over.

To protect my sanity, I just went to bed.
There are some enemies in Bayonetta that are just incredibly difficult. My reflexes aren't the fastest in the world, but there are a few enemies where your reaction times would need to be damn near superhuman to successfully dodge consistently. I had mostly Stone trophys in Bayonetta playing on normal diffiuclty the first time through. I have been able to go back and get the first 10 chapters up to gold and silver, but the final few chapters I will be lucky if I can even get bronze. Finishing them without using a bunch of items is very tough. Bayonetta 2 has much better balance, but 2nd Climax is definately easier than Normal mode was in Bayonetta, so it will be interesting when I go back and play Bayonetta 2 on Third Climax, should be a very tough challenge, but hopefully it maintains the tough but fair gameplay I enjoyed in 2nd Climax. Bayonetta 1+2 is by far the best game released on Wii U in 2014. Its not even close for me. Epic games.
I've definitely gotten my ass handed to me in Bayo, but I can roll with difficult. OTOH, the only enemies that really felt unfair to me were Grace and Glory - but only in small/narrow areas. Outdoors, they're tough (they'll combo the living hell out of you, and don't give you much time to dodge), but manageable. Putting them in small, enclosed spaces, though, was just a really, really, really bad design idea. Fighting them is hard enough; fighting them in narrow confines is harder; fighting the camera at the same time is harder still; fighting not one, but two pairs of them in narrow confines with a shitty camera was just a dumb idea. I don't care about the "dood u needz bettuh sk1lz" comments. A game is supposed to be fun, and those parts weren't fun.

That aside, I've been more impressed by some of the level design as the game progressed. The combat system gets all the press, but to me, you easily could've pared it back to a dozen moves (the pause combos just aren't that reliable). The layout in some of these levels is really pretty good. Great, even.
 

Juegos

All mods go to heaven.
Moderator
Gracious and Glorious are so damn freaking annoying. Grace and Glory were bad enough, but Gracious and Glorious took it to the next dimension with their bullshit.

I actually want to fight them again soon, though. Now that I got a hard drive for my Wii U I'll reinstall these games and give them a few more hours of play.
 

BobSilencieux

Well-Known Member
Grace and Glory are certainly tough, but their attacks are well telegraphed and easy enough to dodge; using witch time to beat them becomes quite routine. But these horrible gold versions of them, which for some reason make it impossible to activate witch time, yeah i didn't enjoy them so much.

Edit: Oh, juegos beat me to it. Gracious and Glorious, huh? Widely regarded as the toughest enemies in the game? Yeah i'd agree with that.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
Well, that ending was suitably hat-eating, chicken-scratching bonkers.

WiiU_screenshot_TV_0157E.jpg

Gracious and Glorious are so damn freaking annoying. Grace and Glory were bad enough, but Gracious and Glorious took it to the next dimension with their bullshit.

I actually want to fight them again soon, though. Now that I got a hard drive for my Wii U I'll reinstall these games and give them a few more hours of play.
Grace and Glory are certainly tough, but their attacks are well telegraphed and easy enough to dodge; using witch time to beat them becomes quite routine. But these horrible gold versions of them, which for some reason make it impossible to activate witch time, yeah i didn't enjoy them so much.

Edit: Oh, juegos beat me to it. Gracious and Glorious, huh? Widely regarded as the toughest enemies in the game? Yeah i'd agree with that.
The odd thing is, I pretty well expected the bullshit with Gracious and Glorious; I knew it'd be bad when I saw them because of the prior fights with the less potent versions, but as soon as I hit the first dodge, I just strapped in. "Oh, this is happening." What pissed me off with Grace and Glory, OTOH, was more mechanical due to the levels.

Exhaustion may have played a part, though. Could never get into my stiletto slide-into-front lift kick combo.
 
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EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
Could a god create a sun so hot that not even he could survive being punched into it?
That's probably just Kamiya-san's sense of humor - the god wielding the power of light dies in the sun. I suppose technically Jubileus wasn't in full deity form, either. She was just in a statue she happened to awaken in, but was without the power of the left eye. Without that, she was basically just wielding the full power of the Lumen.

...and I have no idea why I'm even thinking of that, because the plot is so disjointed and bong-hit crazy. Imagine trying to explain the end of Bayonetta to someone without preamble. "Well, Bayonetta kills god."
 

Juegos

All mods go to heaven.
Moderator
A friend was telling me about an anime he was watching. He told me the ending was predictably cliche, though.
I asked him, "do the protagonists kill God?"
He said, "yeah, well, kind of."
"Then did they kill the Devil?"
"Yeah."

I've actually seen that in 5-10 different Japanese media. I think Kamiya was just taking it to the extreme by punching God into the sun. As he does with everything, anyway.
 

Cubits

Well-Known Member
I've just finished the second season of psycho pass which covers the omnipotence paradox fairly thoroughly, and thought reading the same context into bayonetta was entirely over thinking things.

Kamiya is DIRECT! *double hand chop*
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
Now I feel like an idiot, knowing the ending was actually a well-worn trope.

So I started part two last night. It was 10:30 pm, and I thought: "eh, I'll just play it for half an hour to get things started." The next time I looked at my watch, it was past 1:00 am.

This game is a scene, man. I thought @Goodtwin was just stating a preference on the gameplay mechanics, but no, Bayo2 actually has a distinct feel to it. It really does play better than the original, IMO. I can string combos together far more easily, and the pause combos work much more reliably. Oh, and that jump to launch-kick combo? Thank you, Platinum.

Doesn't hurt that everything looks cleaner, and the color palette is luscious. The plot makes me want to scream at the screen, of course.
Why are you making Enzo fly you to Noatun when Rodin can just open up a portal there?

I'm treating myself to the lowest difficulty on this one (since "Normal" on the original actually made me throw my GamePad at the couch), and why the hell didn't they do this with the first one?! The stupid auto-mode made the first two difficulties in the original utterly unplayable to me - the game literally plays itself - and I didn't see a menu toggle to turn it off. On Bayo2, you turn that ish off, and the game still feels like a game. Grunts feel like grunts, not mini-bosses. Don't get me wrong, it's still way easier, but you will still get hit if you're sloppy.

...but I won't lie. There is a part of me that misses the challenge of getting my ass handed to me. I fully plan on replaying this on higher difficulties, though. There is real incentive with this one, whereas with the original, the first two difficulties are trash, and I don't hate my GamePad enough to try the difficulties above Normal.
 
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EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
One last piece of gushing praise - I'm not sure if it's true, but I read from a few places that this was Yusuke Hashimoto's first time directing a game (no reliable information, unless you count IMDB; he was producer on the original). If this is really his first time as the hands-on, go-to guy? That's staggering. In his debut as a director, he's made one of the greatest action games of all time.
 

Cubits

Well-Known Member
I was shocked by how much better 2 looks after playing 1. The textures, the expanded colour palette, the particles.

And it's not just the technical aspects, the art is different. I think the w101 aesthetic rubbed off on this series. I like it.

Speaking of the bayo 1: The first time I faced grace and glory was my first death in the game. It was also my tenth.

Then there was a fight on the corner of a corridor which I remember as being painful.

Then there was the double fight on a staircase...

Then it was all "Oh you used witch time to beat them? Try now!"

But, beating their asses into pulp elicited far too much maschochistic pleasure after that day... I think I'm broken now.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
In Bayo 1 you disable the auto-mode by unequipping the immortal marionette. I was very happy when i figured that out; game is horribly unplayable with the thing equipped.

Seriously?! Burying it in the menu instead of putting it right in the difficulty selection? I just booted a new save for Bayo1 on Easy to check on it...yep, I never even bothered looking there, because y'know, I hadn't bought anything to equip. I had only played part of chapter 1, thought the "automatic" mode was bullshit, then upped it to normal and never looked back (didn't google the game because I wanted to avoid spoilers).

Gives me a reason to go back and replay the lower difficulties in the original, but still, gahdammit Kamiya. I don't know if I should hug the guy for getting me to complete that unforgiving a game, or send him a bill because of the pixel that no longer works on the upper right hand side of my GamePad due to me throwing it.
I was shocked by how much better 2 looks after playing 1. The textures, the expanded colour palette, the particles.

And it's not just the technical aspects, the art is different. I think the w101 aesthetic rubbed off on this series. I like it.

Speaking of the bayo 1: The first time I faced grace and glory was my first death in the game. It was also my tenth.

Then there was a fight on the corner of a corridor which I remember as being painful.

Then there was the double fight on a staircase...

Then it was all "Oh you used witch time to beat them? Try now!"

But, beating their asses into pulp elicited far too much maschochistic pleasure after that day... I think I'm broken now.
Indeed. I'm definitely noticing the eye candy factor. I get what @Goodtwin was saying about how this might not have been the highest budget game, but there was plenty of muddy/blurry textures all over the first one. Bayo 2, less so. Plus, it's a poster child for how you can change so much visually by stretching out on colors.

[And I died before Grace and Glory, but they were the only part of the game that really got me stuck.]
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
WiiU_screenshot_TV_01726.jpg

Alright, no one warned me about the first legit fight with the masked Lumen. Holy crap. That was so damn good that the rest of the game I marathoned last night - up through saving Jeanne in Inferno - had a hard time matching it. Truly incredible stuff.

I'm playing this on first climax, and even though it's way easier, the difficulty definitely scales. The revised Golem at the Gates of Hell was harder to dodge, and fighting the blue Prophet dude was legit. I must've been missing audio cues, because I was having trouble dodging him. Inferno was pretty impressive, and the fight with Alruane was great.

Bayo 2 seems to swap out some of the scale of the first game's bosses for more interesting locations to fight in with a greater enemy variety, but I'm OK with that. The framerate seems to fluctuate more than the original, but it doesn't dive off a cliff like it did in some parts of Bayo 1.

Really, there are almost no complaints I can levy at this game. It's still easy to fall into button mashing because one, you're rewarded so heavily for witch time and long combos, and two, you can get pretty far by hitting punch four times...but that's nitpick-y as hell.

I think I saw more of what @Goodtwin was mentioning with some of the texture work, but some of it almost looks like they just decided to not put a gloss/slime/reflective/whatever-the-hell-Platinum-uses map on those areas to disguise those surfaces. There's so many of those quasi-slimy looking surfaces that they probably said "dude, I think we have to back off in a few places."

...and yet...I still feel this strange preference for the original, despite 2 objectively doing so much better (in combat mechanics, difficulty, providing more halos so there's less grinding, expanding the color palette, etc.). Maybe it's because I'm playing them back-to-back, so the original felt fresher.
 
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Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Just consider Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 to be one game, it makes life easier not having to decide which one is better. I would say I prefer Bayonetta's numerous large scale boss battles, but Bayonetta 2's combat seems more fluid and responsive to me. I also felt like Witch Time was easier to pull off in Bayonetta 2. Like @EvilTw1n mentioned before, its one thing for a game to be challenging, but it needs to still be fun. Bayonetta 2's difficulty scales better than the original. They are both so good its unbelievable. I hope VGchartz is correct, they have Bayonetta 2 sitting at about 600k sold. That is a success being on a single platform, and before a price drop. I think they may be a bit high, but it did track pretty similar to Hyrule Warriors on Amazon, so its definitely likely that its at least over 500k. I hope this relationship stays tight for years to come between Platinum and Nintendo.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
Just consider Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 to be one game, it makes life easier not having to decide which one is better. I would say I prefer Bayonetta's numerous large scale boss battles, but Bayonetta 2's combat seems more fluid and responsive to me. I also felt like Witch Time was easier to pull off in Bayonetta 2. Like @EvilTw1n mentioned before, its one thing for a game to be challenging, but it needs to still be fun. Bayonetta 2's difficulty scales better than the original. They are both so good its unbelievable. I hope VGchartz is correct, they have Bayonetta 2 sitting at about 600k sold. That is a success being on a single platform, and before a price drop. I think they may be a bit high, but it did track pretty similar to Hyrule Warriors on Amazon, so its definitely likely that its at least over 500k. I hope this relationship stays tight for years to come between Platinum and Nintendo.
Yep, pretty much agree across the board on the strengths of both games. They're unbelievably good; no one else is even remotely close to Platinum's ability to make a pure action game.

It's funny you mentioned VGC, 'cause I was looking at the game's sales on Thursday. If they're ballpark? That's fantastic. The first one sold 1.3 million-ish in its first year across two platforms. On a "dead" console with an audience that isn't supposed to buy these games? Over 500K is impressive. If the game's selling legs are anywhere as long as Bayonetta's own, it'll almost match the original. [Of course, we're trusting VGC here...]
Objectively, it's better than the first. There's almost nothing in 2 that isn't better than 1.

Excluding the the size of some bosses. But also the story. I mean, the story wasn't great in part one, but when I thought about it, it still worked...despite the plot holes. 2 tries to fill in the plot holes of the original - and it does fill in plenty - but makes zero sense in the process. Once Loptr becomes Aesir, after absorbing Loki's sovereign power and the Eyes from Bayo and Balder, Loki shouldn't have any power left over the Eyes to stop him. And why the hell does Balder summon half of Jubileus, who is dead at this point? And what was the point of the Jeanne/Gomorrah/Alraune plot? Unless I missed something, the entire Inferno plot was completely throwaway. The demon turns on Bayo and Jeanne because....reasons? And then Jeanne ends up summoning him at the end of the game, because Japan?

But anywho...I finished it in a tick under 10 hours, where the original was 16 hours (more like 20, with all of my deaths). But it never felt rushed; I never felt like I didn't have time to explore a big area that warranted exploring. And since it's not a huge time suck, I can replay it over any given weekend.

Better art with an expansive new palette, slightly more fluid combat, difficulty that is fair (by Platinum standards, at least), great boss fights...hell, the on-rails homage was even better than the original's (which overstayed its welcome, IMO).

A deserving GOTY. I'm gonna write something up on it for Monday. We should do a podcast, too.

...I'm still torn between 1 and 2. It's sort of like the same thing between Prime 2 and 3 for me - Corruption is objectively better, but subjectively, I prefer Echoes. Even though I was consistently getting stone in the original Bayonetta, I think I might appreciate it a touch more. But it's close. Bayonetta and Bayo 2 have joined Vanquish on my favorite games list.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
All this Bayonetta discussion gave me the urge to go back and continue to upgrade my stones for better material. I would like to get them all above stone, but now that I have silver overall, I will ptobably start Bayonetta 2 on 3rd climax before to long.
 

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EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
I'm sure I'll edit the hell out of this tomorrow, but eh, I needed to put something up.
http://nintendoenthusiast.com/article/deconstructing-bayonetta-2-2014-goty/

Also, @juegosmajicos, any idea why that doesn't show up in the top slider thing?
All this Bayonetta discussion gave me the urge to go back and continue to upgrade my stones for better material. I would like to get them all above stone, but now that I have silver overall, I will ptobably start Bayonetta 2 on 3rd climax before to long.
Yeah, I really wanna get back to the original and improve on all of the stone I have. But I'm also gonna do the lower difficulties first. "Normal," my ass. If it's "normal," then ghost peppers are "mild."
 

Juegos

All mods go to heaven.
Moderator
Nice article, Mike. I think right now the slider thing is busted, don't know if it's getting fixed or got fixed or what.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Awesome article. I just started Bayonetta 2 on 3rd Climax, and my immediate impressions was that it wasnt that much harder than 2nd Climax. It took me a until the 2nd chapter before I realized how smart they were with the difficulty changes. The actual enemy AI and attacks arent much different, but when you make a mistake, thats when the punishment happens. You take damage much more quickly, and at the same time, deal damage less quickly. So instead of making enemies tougher, its more about punishing you for those mistakes that were previously less costly. I wennt from going Gold to getting dropped quickly. Miscalculate witch time, get whacked a few times, and suddenly things dont look so good. So far I like it, I like it a lot, because if your on top of your game, you can be just as badass as before. Tough but fair comes to mind. Platinum really did strike a perfect balance with challenging but fair gameplay. Much better than they did in the first game. Like ET said, Bayonetta's Normal mode is like saying a Ghost pepper is mild. Bayonetta 2 strikes a far better balance with its difficulty.
 
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