Game of Thrones discussion thread (spoilers for the series and the book material covered)

[theMightyME]

so first things first...
NO BOOK SPOILERS!!!!!
unless they fall chronologically before the events of the series (for example.. the first 2 books covered the first 2 seasons... but there are differences)


------------------------


I figured we might need this with season 3 about to start

I am currently listening to the audiobook for the second book (clash of kings) which covers the same events of the second season (but with some differences)

unfortunately wont finish book 2 before season 3 starts... but I am about 3/4 of the way through

I think I am most excited for Daenerys and Arya's stories... the trailers make it look like danerys gets an army and her dragons are about the size of large dogs now and are actively flying and breathing fire and beginning to develop their own personalities... Arya on the other hand is probably my favorite character now that I have been going through the audiobook... I love her in the series as well, but I really got into her headspace with book 2 in a way that wouldn't be possible with the way the TV is done... I cannot wait to see where her journey takes her.. I am hoping she continues to grow into a formidable force now that she has an rpg-esque party, fighting skill, and has experienced magic first hand

of course it'll be awesome to see tyrion again... peter dinklage is amazing on the show, I just don't think he will do much of interest this season.,.. he had so much power in season 2, and now he does not.. hopefully he has a great role to play this season regardless

I'm not yet all that into the stories beyond the wall outside of that massive white walker army... I think if I start to see more magic or start to get to understand soem fot eh wildling politics and such I might get more into it, but right now I'm not as invested there...

I'm also not really attached to rob's story now... but his seems to have the coolest dire wolf scenes...

learning more about the spider from the book has made me a little elss itnerested in the events taking palce in king's landing but I am sure big stuff will be afoot... Is till don't have much sympathy for sansa yet either

I am interested in seeing what happens with jamie and bryne... I know that jamie is a favorite character for many people but he hasn't had much to do lately so i imagine there will be better material for him soon

excited to see what happens with the hound a sit looks like he is leaving king's landing


what does everyone else think

 

[theMightyME]

nobody else watches game of thrones?

thought it was a great episode.. no arya unfortunately... but seeing giants was cool as hell, and that old knight coming to daenarys was awesome as well... the episode just flew by.. when it ended we were all like "that's it?" but it was a full hour.. felt like 20 minutes

 

[AniGamer]

If the series was on Netflix, I'd definitely catch up. I've never even seen an episode yet!

 

[theMightyME]

If the series was on Netflix, I'd definitely catch up. I've never even seen an episode yet!

you are missing out... IMO it is the second best show on TV right behind breaking bad, and it is climbing ever closer to toppling even that... seriously.. find a way to watch it... it'll never be on netflix... nothing HBO does is... HBOI has HBO go which will eventually be a competitor to netflix... right now it is just soemthign extra you get if you already have HBO... but in a matter of time hey will offer it ala carte like netflix for the cord-cutters

there are dvd/blu-ray sets for the first 2 seasons

even the opening credits are amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8

 

[ninjadynamo]

Last night's episode was another filler episode... Overall I'm enjoying the series, and yes they need to show more of the dragons! Originally I was routing for the Starks now I hope she makes it across the sea and reclaims the throne!

 

[theMightyME]

holy crap on a stick.... it really happened.... this was basically spoiled for me... but not directly... too many people giving their own cryptic little hints made me pretty sure what was about to go down... but my fear that arya might die there too actually affected my sleep... so while I should ahve been super sad about the deaths that did happen I was more relieved about the 1 that didn't

but how tragic... what a horrible event...

because the episode was basically spoiled for me, the most exciting scene for me was bran taking control of hodor... I was like WTF!!!!... seeing the other psychic kid looking on in shock just showed how amazing it really was

I really REALLY want Arrya to get some vengeance now... she has had 2 extremely dangerous mentor figures in her life with her sword instructor and the guy who changed his face (was cool how she brought him up in this episode)... maybe she will have a new mentor in the hound even though she hates him... her sword instructor taught her to be willy and fast, her assassin buddy taught her to be determined and conclusive, perhaps the hound will teach her to be cold and warry

it really does feel like she is destined for greatness... which means she will probably die in the next episode FUCK!!!!

that will be hard for me if/when she dies... she is probably my favorite character right now... even surpassing tyrion (perhaps because he didn't have much to do this season, and what he did have to do was more against his will instead of at the design of his wits)

 

[ASuch]

Bumping this cuz we need some GoT hype

 

[repomech]

I've always been scared as sh*t to come into this thread to be honest, all because of fear of book spoilers. I love this series and I am making my way through the books now (I am about a hundred or so pages into book two, so safely within the bounds of this thread), as much as I love the show (it has been my favourite TV series of the past few years), the books are even better. So I reiterate @theMightyME 's maxim: NO BOOK SPOILERS.

With that said, I am loving how Joffrey's demise, instead of pandering catharsis, was suitably horrific (ah, the Tears of Lys) yet so swift as to be surprising, and immediately morphed the whole affair into a "whodunnit?" murder mystery for the audience. I am assuming tonight's episode won't deal much at all with the ramifications of his death or the mystery surrounding it, we're likely in for an episode split between some combination of John, Arya, Bran and Daenerys.

What are your current theories on who poisoned him? Or should I say - more to the point - who was behind his poisoning? (I don't especially care who literally slipped him the poison)

I've talked about this with a few friends and I was surprised by how many seemed to think it was the Tyrells. This makes no sense to me. I mean, perhaps one day they would send him to the same fate as Robert Baratheon, but not now. He's an investment to be protected for them at this time, their whole power move is based on Margaery's becoming Queen. Something she can't well do with the King dead. Recall that in this world, she does not remain Queen. It passes to the next in line: Tommen. She hasn't been Queen long enough to sway key decisions, control appointments, stack councils etc. I'll say this much, if it was a Tyrell, they acted as an individual from emotion, not as part of a condoned family power move.

There is of course no shortage of candidates. Ser Dantos seemed ready to react to events. But did he really have the means to get his hands on Tears of Lys alone? Or the reliability of access to put such a plot in motion? If he did have a chance at Joffrey's wine or cake, it was likely a spontaneous opportunity, not one he could have planned for - at least not without help. Again, there's so many who would love to see revenge or just deserts done to the little prick. But the game - that game of thrones, whose game is advanced? That most important question of them all: cui bono?

I have to say, considered from that perspective, while that still leaves a few possibilities, his military opponents would likely not have the means and opportunity - nor is it obvious that they would significantly benefit from his death at this time in this way. The forces behind him matter more than he himself did, and the Lannister's have a next King in reserve with Tommen. In fact even a limited amount of insight would reveal Joffrey was probably more of a liability than anyone of political-military significance to his side. Now, for sure they could believe otherwise, but again - means and opportunity.

All of this has lead me to my strongest candidate as the main force behind his poisoning: Tywin Lannister.

Is there any doubt he would have had the means and opportunity to engineer or execute such a plan? So let's discuss motive.

Tywin knew full well that Joffrey was a liability. Joffrey was unpredictable, entitled, unpopular, cowardly, foolish and indulgent. He was difficult to control at the best of times, and would only have become more so, and therefore more dangerous, with age. He certainly hadn't shown that he had even an ounce of positive sentiment nor respect for the boy-king. Also, Tywin is pathologically suspicious of rival houses, and this effectively puts the kaibosh on the centrepiece of the Tyrell's powerplay plans (recalling that he already undermined the marriage of Sansa and Ser Loras for fear of its political implications). Meanwhile, the younger, more mouldable, and presumably less outwardly despicable Tommen succeeds to the throne at no loss (and arguably much gain) to the Lannister house. This is exactly the way Tywin thinks, and he is likely to be unencumbered by concerns about Cersei, for whom he has no respect. Furthermore, Tywin is a control freak, and yet notice how he doesn't seize control of the situation in the wake of the poisoning, as hand of the king he allows Cersei's hysteria to rule the moment sewing further confusion by making a wild accusation. He could easily have shut her down, put the wedding on lock down and begun a search for the true culprit. But it didn't seem to be going there, did it? As Hand of the King, he will be largely responsible for determining the culprit for a murder he engineered, the murder of a brat-king that none-too-many will be losing any sleep over in any event. There's likely to be a wider sentiment of relief than a desire for justice. A scapegoat will do, as it's all for show in any event, keeping up appearances.

Thoughts? Alternative candidates? AGAIN WITH NO FOREKNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOKS PLEASE!!

 

[ASuch]

The easy answer would be Oleen or whatever her name is. She gave Tyrion the same look Roose gave Lady Catelyn *bless her soul*. One suspect we can definitely rule out is Sansa, though. If she were to poison the cup as she grabbed it from the floor, then that is way too convenient. If that was her plan, how could she expect Joffrey to hit away the gobblet and for it to fall next to her? It wasn't Sansa. For sure.

I don't think Tywin would do it. He dislikes Joffrey, but Joffrey is the one supplying the family power. Killing the king leaves a power vacuum.

 

[theMightyME]

I am suspecting a grand conspiracy.... and at the center of it all.. Oberyn Martell (the new guy that hates the lannisters)

I really don't know though....

I want it to be Oberyn though because I love the idea that he is that brazen, and we know he is capable of taking the Lannisters head on.. his family is ridiculously powerful too if you noticed the Lannisters were VERY weary of him, they didn't act tough to him like they do to everyone else... also (and this isn't a spoiler really as he is referred to throughout the series before we see him) he is supposedly a warrior with few to no equals

I LOVE the idea of somebody who puts the entire Lannister house on edge, somebody who is that much of a threat, but who also cannot be just killed off (as that would cause an even greater threat)

 

[repomech]

The easy answer would be Oleen or whatever her name is. She gave Tyrion the same look Roose gave Lady Catelyn *bless her soul*. One suspect we can definitely rule out is Sansa, though. If she were to poison the cup as she grabbed it from the floor, then that is way too convenient. If that was her plan, how could she expect Joffrey to hit away the gobblet and for it to fall next to her? It wasn't Sansa. For sure.

I don't think Tywin would do it. He dislikes Joffrey, but Joffrey is the one supplying the family power. Killing the king leaves a power vacuum.

There's no power vacuum. Not in any practical sense. The real forces behind Joffrey's brief reign remain completely intact and untouched. His rule was largely symbolic, he only exercised brief moments of decisions that were truly his own - usually in a fashion that were characterized by an unpredictable and cruel personal indulgence that was strategically foolish. Any vacuum exists only at the level of symbolism and would last for less than three seconds, because Tommen automatically succeeds to the throne as the new face of the regime, backed by the same old forces. Lannister power is not diminished in the least. Having Tommen as the new symbolic face of the regime should strengthen it if anything - all while curtailing the rising power of the Tyrells.

What motive would Olenna have to poison Joffrey at this particular time?

@theMightyME Oberyn is too convenient, and would suggest a level of pandering to the audience at the expense of the subtle intricacies of the power games that doesn't strike me as a style Martin would succumb to. Flashy new cocky anti-hero warrior shows up and poisons the king while making thinly veiled threats and trash talk to every Lannister he encounters? In our dreams, yet I don't see it. Yes the Lannisters have to tread carefully with him, but that's more because of the strategic importance of the relationship with Dorne in a fragile context, rather than his individual prowess as a warrior. But even so, he can't show up and off the king right in front of everyone so brazenly and expect them to tip toe around that fact - he would have overstepped in a way that would allow them to move against him. As great a warrior as he may be, this isn't a Rambo movie and he isn't going to 1 v 100 his way out of King's Landing under those circumstances. I would rank him among the least likely candidates.

I can see Varys as a dark horse. It seems out of character in some ways, yet in line with the values he has displayed thus far, and we must remember from Season 1 - his full motives may not be on display for us to see as yet.

EDIT: @theMightyME perhaps my objection to your suggestion of Oberyn rests on a strawman account of how you envision it having taken place. What did you mean by a vast conspiracy? NOTE: I have not seen tonight's episode yet, and won't until tomorrow evening at the earliest, so please no spoilers from the latest episode! Perhaps I should catch up and then resume this discussion...

 

[theMightyME]

by vast conspiracy I mean several houses and parties all involved in the same plot... no I do not mean that he makes himself the target... I mean that he brazenly flaunts himself before them as others orchestrated commit the deed... leaving nothing to tie back to him personally...

 

[Wolven]

I just found out about this thread....... *breathing intensifies* my gosh. How come nobody told me about this?

 

[repomech]

Ok so by my count that's...

@ASuch +2 (The Tyrells, Olenna specifically + countering my incorrect theory)

@theMightyME +1 (it was a pretty vast conspiracy - only Oberyn wasn't at the centre of it, but still I think that deserves a point)

@repomech -2 (wrong on all counts and on my debunking of the correct guesses. I overlooked a most fundamental detail of the customs of Westeros - not only does the betrothal of women pass on to the next male heir in the marriage arrangements of the highborn should the first male die before marriage, but apparently even in at least some instances where they die shortly thereafter.)

 

[EvilTw1n]

I've held out on watching Game of Thrones, but I saw a short description online last night that kind of makes me want to watch it.

Debbie Does Gondor.

 

[Wolven]

I hope you guys are ready for Sunday's episode..............

 

[theMightyME]

I am excited... this will be episode 8... historical precedence says the episode AFTER that will be the big one (every episode 9 has been insane)

having a small get together at my house for episode 9

was going to do it for the finale.. but it lands on fathers day

 

[Wolven]

The episode I am most looking forward to is episode 10, "The Children", cast'crew said there is a heavy CGI scene in there, and it can be one of two things....... Also excited for tomorrow's episode, I really want to see their execution. I am not TOO excited for episode 9, but still excited. I just want them to do this ONE scene, and to execute it well. I will be a sad panda if this scene is changed or altered in any way, which it will most likely be. Oh please, HBO don't mess this scene up.

Edit: Just saw the recap, you guys are in for a treat tomorrow :>

 

[theMightyME]

 

[Wolven]

So...... I want to hear reactions....

 

[theMightyME]

So...... I want to hear reactions....

red wedding hurt me, this hurt me more... I grew attached very quickly... I just hope the mountain is dead too, so it wasn't all for nothing

 

[Wolven]

red wedding hurt me, this hurt me more... I grew attached very quickly... I just hope the mountain is dead too, so it wasn't all for nothing

Oberyn is known as the Red Viper.

 

[theMightyME]

I hope the mountain goes down in a horrible miserable and pathetic way... but god.. oberyn's death is still hurting me guh... it was SOOOOO nice having somebody who was a credible threat to the Lannisters and the other schemers of king's landing

 

[DarkDepths]

The thing is, I know the books, so I try to stay out of this thread. Last episode was pretty painful to watch though... just the whole "sploosh" of his head... If only he hadn't been so cocky and just killed him.

I don't want to accidentally spoil anything though, I'm out of here!

 

[repomech]

Just finished watching this now.

red wedding hurt me, this hurt me more... I grew attached very quickly... I just hope the mountain is dead too, so it wasn't all for nothing

This.

This is the first thing I've seen where I genuinely went "fuck this show. fuck. all. this."

I didn't care for the way it drags Princess Bride into this either. Getting everyone all worked up for the Inigo Montoya moment, and then - nope. And you could see it coming when he started pacing too close to the body. FFS, sever the key muscles in the arms at the shoulder and bicep so they're limp, ditto on the hamstrings and kneecaps, a great warrior would know this anatomy - then, and ONLY THEN, do you start putting on the confession pressure.

My wife is currently trying to talk me back into continuing with the series. I can appreciate a series that doesn't simply deliver some syrupy story book end to all its characters. That's real. Reality, history - it's that you don't often get the happy end to a conflict or story. But you know what? Sometimes you do. Just not here! And that's my problem, it's unrelenting, it isn't win-some lose some. He's just gone and flipped all the switches to "off". Wherever he sets up a +, it's only so he can put a -. This is the exact same method as a story that ends in a bunch of happy cliches, one that wraps everything up with neat little bow, it's just this ends in tragic cliches. What a pile of bullshit. The world is starting to feel less real - forget the authentic product of struggling agencies, this is more like some kind of Cthulhu grand design - the universe is conspiring against you. Boo I say. Boooo.

 

[theMightyME]

Just finished watching this now.



This.

This is the first thing I've seen where I genuinely went "fuck this show. fuck. all. this."

I didn't care for the way it drags Princess Bride into this either. Getting everyone all worked up for the Inigo Montoya moment, and then - nope. And you could see it coming when he started pacing too close to the body. FFS, sever the key muscles in the arms at the shoulder and bicep so they're limp, ditto on the hamstrings and kneecaps, a great warrior would know this anatomy - then, and ONLY THEN, do you start putting on the confession pressure.

My wife is currently trying to talk me back into continuing with the series. I can appreciate a series that doesn't simply deliver some syrupy story book end to all its characters. That's real. Reality, history - it's that you don't often get the happy end to a conflict or story. But you know what? Sometimes you do. Just not here! And that's my problem, it's unrelenting, it isn't win-some lose some. He's just gone and flipped all the switches to "off". Wherever he sets up a +, it's only so he can put a -. This is the exact same method as a story that ends in a bunch of happy cliches, one that wraps everything up with neat little bow, it's just this ends in tragic cliches. What a pile of bullshit. The world is starting to feel less real - forget the authentic product of struggling agencies, this is more like some kind of Cthulhu grand design - the universe is conspiring against you. Boo I say. Boooo.

well I AM continuing.. the pain is almost too much.. it has seriously put me in a funk since I watched it... I had to go upstairs early last night because I just needed some time alone

I think what hurts the most isn't that the character died, but how he died, and what he represented (a force to be reckoned with for the Lannisters) that made it so hard on me... all of that being said.. it was (like the red wedding) spoiled for me in advance by some careless fans... well in this case by a jackass who wanted to ruin the ending for people by making a post in a forum unrelated to game of thrones that read "the mountain kills oberyn"... but even still I hoped so much that it wasn't true this time that I had convinced myself it was a BS post and not true...

as far as all losses goes... hey.. Joffrey died... Arya (my favorite character) is slicing and gouging her way through her list (and how awesome was it when she laughed at the news of her aunt's death), Tyrion is still alive (I think he'll get away some how), and apparently next week is to the wall what season 2s penultimate was to kings landing... just a massive scale epic battle with a huge budget... so that is all win for me...

yeah some of the deaths hit a bit too hard... but it is a testament to how much I care about the show that they do

I have never given up on a show because it has hurt me... I give up when it bores me

 

[repomech]

well I AM continuing.. the pain is almost too much.. it has seriously put me in a funk since I watched it... I had to go upstairs early last night because I just needed some time alone

I think what hurts the most isn't that the character died, but how he died, and what he represented (a force to be reckoned with for the Lannisters) that made it so hard on me...

as far as all losses goes... hey.. Joffrey died... Arya (my favorite character) is slicing and gouging her way through her list (and how awesome was it when she laughed at the news of her aunt's death), Tyrion is still alive (I think he'll get away some how), and apparently next week is to the wall what season 2s penultimate was to kings landing... just a massive scale epic battle with a huge budget... so that is all win for me...

The bolded part. Exactly. I can accept very sudden shocking turns and unjust things happening to characters I root for in shows, but the problem I am having is with feeling overly manipulated in the way the audience is being consistently setup for disappointment. This happening sometimes, someways, is fine. I never expected Oberyn to waltz into King's landing and have it end with the downfall of the Lannisters or something equally silly. If Oberyn had succeeded and then next episode been held in King's Landing and killed in some vengeful plot to persecute him on the part of Cersei, I wouldn't have had this issue. Frankly, if he'd simply been overpowered during the fight I would have been disappointed, but not had this issue. It's the manipulation. It's the way the story has been designed or portrayed to setup for contrived tragedy. It felt like an after school cartoon where the "villain" snatches defeat from the jaws of victory by delivering an indulgent speech for 10 minutes before pushing some button or something that would seal the deal on their victory - thusly leaving time for the "good guys" to come to the rescue and foil the plot at the last moment. I always hated that about those cartoons.

I mean, I think Arya's great too. And Daenerys. But we're being set up to cheer for them. Which means, not so much that they will die (though I'm sure they will). But it means they will probably die, by design, at the hands of the people we least want to kill them - in the way that we'd least want to see, at the point when it would maximize the tragedy. If Arya had died of starvation or been killed by some random bandit on the road, I'd find that realistic, perhaps even likely. Just the same way Prince Joffrey doesn't have to die at the hands of a Stark victory - he died in a most likely way. I think it's about trust with the story. I don't trust that I am being given an authentic picture of what lethally contending factions look like (and I am not necessarily intended to, but I think I had mistaken it for that). This seems to be a melodramatic tragedy. Which makes it manipulative with respect to the fates of only those we are meant to cheer for, but ultimately predictable (not in the specifics, which are still intriguing and expertly written, but overall, all roads lead to...). It would be nice to find out that isn't the case, and I will watch the next episode (I was raw having just finished watching it when posting), I'll see if I feel invested again, and if so, take a break - and then continue with the books.

 

[repomech]

I've held out on watching Game of Thrones, but I saw a short description online last night that kind of makes me want to watch it.

Debbie Does Gondor.

Heh. Based on what I've read vs. watched (I am up to date on the show, but maybe only a fifth of the way through the second book), I can say that they've added a lot of gratuitous brothel scenes that aren't a part of the books (even going so far as to introduce a new character in this line of work who wasn't in the books). There are however some very explicit erotic interactions between the characters in the books that have been toned down, or altered to minimize or filter completely their depictions of pleasure in the show (sometimes replacing pleasure, interestingly (or not), with a currency more familiar to an American audience - violence).

 

[ASuch]

FUCK THIS SHOW

FUCK EVERYTHING

 

[ASuch]

oberyn and mountain pls

 

[repomech]

None of this was helped by the fact that the actor who played Oberyn looks like a very dear and longstanding friend of mine. I'm still salty and brooding over this. Fucking hell.

 

[ASuch]

good lord the internet is great

 

[Wolven]

@ASuch That made me laugh.

@repomech keep on watching. Trust me, keep on watching. You will not regret it

 

[ASuch]

yes yes yes yes

 

[Odo]

The best thing about this series is that while everyone are fighting each other, winter is coming and nobody cares.

So my question is, the winter is going to make all the lords allied or fighting the bloody freezing creatures will be the duty of the last hero standing?

I'm watching this series waiting to fill this anwser.

 

[ASuch]

The best thing about this series is that while everyone are fighting each other, winter is coming and nobody cares.

So my question is, the winter is going to make all the lords allied or fighting the bloody freezing creatures will be the duty of the last hero standing?

I'm watching this series waiting to fill this anwser.

I think they'll leave it to the North/Starks/Knight's Watch to deal with it for a while, but then they'll start focusing on it later

 

[ASuch]

 

[Juegos]

I just started and caught up with this show this past week. I mean that I started at Season 1 episode 1 less than a week ago, and just now finished watching the last episode.

I don't feel taken aback by the death of Oberyn, probably because I didn't get to see him throughout several months but rather in the space of a single night. But the writing is definitely shitty, and I get a stronger and stronger feeling that the writers of this show (or G. R. R. Martin, if the show's story right now is faithful to the book) don't really know what to do with many of their characters.

Oberyn is the current example, but to me the biggest sign of this was the death of Robb Stark. His death had no meaning, no catharsis, and paved no way for anyone's character development, and it wasn't even a commentary on the futility of man or anything of the sort. Frankly, his death wasn't any less contrived than any old sitcom character getting sent on a bus to NYC to disappear from the show forever. It showed to me that the writers had no clue what to do with him, literally not a single clue to give his life any meaning, and decided to just kill him off to simplify the story. While I generally don't like shocking-for-the-sake-of-shock scenes already, I feel that this one was worse because it meant the viewer wasted all his time following Robb Stark's story for the 3 seasons previous to that.

With that, I agree with Repo. These guys (or G. R. R. Martin) are just practicing their ability to jerk their audience around from episode to episode, like it's a Latin-American soap opera. I thought the story was building towards a logical point very similar to Berserk's eclipse and feast: while all these fuckers are worried about taking back King's Landing, winter is coming and it's going to catch them with their pants down. I though it made sense for characters to lose things very dear to them, so that they may strengthen themselves against the real war of the North. But again, scenes like the red wedding seem to indicate that no thought has actually been given to the future of the story, and that the only reason we see characters live or die week to week is for shock value they may provide.

Anyway, since I watched so much of it in such a short time let me give a short review of the series so far:

5/10 when shitty characters won't stop talking, and we keep seeing the queen's abysmal character get 30 mins of screentime per episode compared to daenerys' 5 minutes per episode.

10/10 when exploring the lore, locales, customs of different cultures, and the potential of the actual war with the White Walkers. And motherfucking direwolves, and giants, and wargs, and faceless killers, and actual fantasy elements.

The less time wasted on shitty character drama, titties-of-the-week brothel scenes, and egregious barrages of witty retorts between Tyrion and Cersei, the better.

 

[ASuch]

You don't like Cersei but you like Dany? GTFO. Dany has had the most boring storyline ever since Drogo died. LOL let's free some more slaves

also the drama and wit is awesome, stfu man

 

[Juegos]

You don't like Cersei but you like Dany? GTFO. Dany has had the most boring storyline ever since Drogo died. LOL let's free some more slaves

also the drama and wit is awesome, stfu man

The wit was great as exposition, when it was used to showcase the relationship between Tyrion and Cersei, for example. But then it keeps happening, about 3 times per episode on average, and it's a huge waste of time.

Daenerys' storyline is only boring right now because she's pretty much getting 5 minutes each episode, and 20 at the end of the season. Meanwhile, Cersei gets 20 mins per episode and nothing happens. I'm really thinking that actress has gotta be the girlfriend of one of the writers or something.

Everyone is more interesting than Cersei, except for Theon and Ramsey, who should have both been killed a season ago, and Stannis, who's got the personality of a wall clock. Fucking Jon Snow, Bran and Arya Stark, Tyrion, Oberyn, Littlefinger and the Spider, Jaime Lannister, that boss grandma of the new Queen, even Sam, all these guys were vastly more interesting to follow than Cersei telling Tyrion she hates him for the 40th time.

This show needs to hurry up and kill half of its cast in some apocalyptic event. Thankfully we're near the end of the season now, it could happen. But being realistically, the next episode is probably going to be Tyrion dying, and the last episode is just going to have 20 minutes of the dragons breathing slightly more fire than the last time.

Note: I haven't read the books myself, so I have no idea where the story is going (if it's going anywhere that isn't more characters being introduced and killed halfway through the season). What I say about an apocalyptic event is just my own speculation about what I HOPE it comes to, like in Berserk.

 

[Juegos]

Let me further express my distaste.

Game of Thrones when Cersei is not on camera:

Game of Thrones when Cersei is on camera:

 

[DarkDepths]

Oberyn is the current example, but to me the biggest sign of this was the death of Robb Stark. His death had no meaning, no catharsis, and paved no way for anyone's character development, and it wasn't even a commentary on the futility of man or anything of the sort. Frankly, his death wasn't any less contrived than any old sitcom character getting sent on a bus to NYC to disappear from the show forever. It showed to me that the writers had no clue what to do with him, literally not a single clue to give his life any meaning, and decided to just kill him off to simplify the story. While I generally don't like shocking-for-the-sake-of-shock scenes already, I feel that this one was worse because it meant the viewer wasted all his time following Robb Stark's story for the 3 seasons previous to that.

I disagree with you on the Robb Stark point. I think the reason you feel this way is because you are approaching it from the traditional idea of storytelling - that good defeats evil, that all things progress to some end, and that somehow, things manage to work themselves out in the end. I don't think that is what Game Of Thrones is. I'm sure you could find some commentary in it if you dug deep enough, but then I think you would be missing the point.

I don't think this is a case of writers not knowing what to do with a character. On the contrary, I think they knew exactly what they wanted to do... they wanted to kill him. Not to simplify the story, not for the shock of random death, but because it was time for him to die. It is not the way stories usually go - hero figures in the prime of their lives don't usually die so early in a story - but it is, in my opinion, a believable story. Why did Robb Stark die? Because Walder Frey is an asshole.

Personally, I think that's enough of an argument for the literary validity of his death. But, coming back to some of your points about his death having no meaning and paving no paths for other characters, I'm not sure I agree.

First of all, there is the obvious point that much of the story past the point of his death would have been dramatically different had he and his mother not died. Arya, more than likely would have met up with her brother and mother at the wedding. Who knows how her character would have been different had that occurred - and frankly, who wants to know? She's one of the most interesting characters in the story, as far as I'm concerned, and it's largely because everyone she loves is dying!

Or Sansa? If Catelyn still lived, how would things be different between Sansa and Baelish? Would he have taken her at all? We know his infatuation with her stems from the love of her mother. But with Catelyn and Robb still alive, would he have dared to take her, or for that matter, would he have cared to knowing the there was still the potential for him to worm his way into Catelyn's life? Would he have ever had cause to push Lysa through the moon door, and therefore would her snivelling little lord have ever left the confines of his walls?

Or how about Roose Bolton taking charge of the North? Perhaps more importantly, what about Ramsay? His character would have been left for nothing had he not had the opportunity to win the affection of his father by fighting for the North. Further, without the strong, united force led by the Starks in the North, how will Westeros react to the "Winter"?

I think these are all interesting questions that we can only ask because of the Red Wedding. The death of Robb, and his mother, with stemmed from the death of Eddard, is, as I see it, integral to the rest of the story as it is being told, and it has led to, in my opinion, some of the most interesting character development thus far (I'm of course referring to Arya).

I'll grant you, it gave the viewer nothing, but I don't see why it needed to.

 

[Juegos]

No, I agree that Robb Stark needed to die. Arya should have witnessed it or in some way felt more of an immediate impact from it (though seeing Robb's corpse with his wolf's head sewn on top of his is pretty gruesome, but it's something she only saw the episode after, and very briefly), and Lord Bolton or whatever his name is should have been prominent in the story before this part, so that we knew his name for at least one reason. Fans of the book might have known perfectly who every one of these guys were and what their motivations are in these events, but from just watching the tv show I got no such idea, and so it seemed to me to not have any impact.

I do think the scene had to give the viewer something. It gave me nothing. I didn't make me appreciate Arya more because she didn't directly witness and internalize the event, it didn't make me feel bad for Robb Stark or his mom cause their story was pretty unremarkable, and it didn't teach me anything new about the influence of the Lannisters, because that much they had made sure to hammer on to me at every episode.

I don't disagree with Robb Stark dying, or that his death has strong ramifications in the plot (or about as much as Stannis' defeat, anyway), I just think it's a poorly written scene. Maybe G. R. R. Martin did a great job with that scene in the book, but I certainly felt like the TV equivalent was hastily written and poorly explained, like when Sakamoto expected everyone to have read the Metroid manga to understand why Samus has PTSD and freezes up in the presence of Ridley.

 

[DarkDepths]

I'm not sure why you think Arya should have had a more direct impact from the scene. I thought her distraught was portrayed fairly well, and her eagerness to kill Walder Frey I think, attests to the fact that she "internalized" it. I'll agree, it didn't make me feel bad for Robb or Catelyn, but it did make me sad for their movement.

To be honest, I really quite liked the scene. That moment when musicians start playing "The Rains of Castamere" and Catelyn gets the "Oh Shit" look on her face was fairly powerful, I thought.

 

[Juegos]

I did like that moment as well.

 

[theMightyME]

Completely disagree with you Alex... I think the big supernatural moments work so well because of the character drama rather than in spite of it... We are seeing a world begin to be taken over by magic which was mostly thought extinct... It is similar to what made ff6 work so well.

I hated Oberyn dying but I felt it was an amazingly will done scene that will continue to pay off in the future (remember Oberyn is only our first introduction to Dorne and the Martell family) they are the only house not to surrender to Agon the conquerer, I am sure we will see much more of them and Oberyn's fate will surely play a part in the full introduction of that family (I haven't read the books either btw)

 

[Wolven]

Ohhhhhhh, Juegos joined in!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And loving those Silmarillion pics that you posted!

So scared to say things cause I am afraid I might give something away..................

Oh well. Next season is going to have a LOT of Dornish people. A lot of Martells next season. It is going to be good. Also, you guys might want to rewatch episodes with Oberyn in it, and try to catch anything

Oh and on tomorrow's episode, you guys should find it enjoyable, tomorrow and episode 10 is as close to a fairy tale as Game of Thrones is EVER going to get.

 

[Wolven]

@juegosmajicos I know that city on that last pic you posted by the way. Its been forever since I have looked at Lord of the Rings lore though.............. It begins with a G, I am sure of that.

 

[DarkDepths]

I know that city on that last pic you posted by the way. Its been forever since I have looked at Lord of the Rings lore though.............. It begins with a G, I am sure of that.

Minas Tirith?

 

[Wolven]

Noooo. Not Minas Tirith. It was brought up a couple times in the Lord of the Rings and was featured heavily in the Silmarillion

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