Let's talk Armillo!

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
^
I still need to get Nano Assault Neo. I think Matty just picked it up, too.

Which makes me wonder...yo @FuzzyWuzzyGames, what's your favorite eShop game on the Wii U?
To be honest, I've barely had much time to play games in general since I got my Wii U - downsides of having two jobs for a while. I've been playing mostly Nintendo's own games as I find the time. But once Armillo ships, I'm going to go crazy playing some of those eShop games that I've been looking forward to playing. The two games I'm particularly looking forward to playing are Shovel Knight and Toki Tori 2.

That's right, I almost forgot about Shovel Knight! :-O
Toki Tori 2 is a good game, and it's too bad Two Tribes went bankrupt because of low sales. Other games you should consider are of course Nano Assault Neo, Trine 2, Runner 2, and while I haven't started it yet, Gianna Sisters is also supposed to be quite good.
 

GaemzDood

Well-Known Member
@Mike, their handheld sales give them freedom to assure high quality 3rd party titles arrive on their console. Way, way more than Sony's TV division actually. Third party support is important because it gives systems longer lifespans. The SNES had a long lifespan, every Nintendo console after it didn't. Longer lifespans means they can build more models and have more console supplies ready to be sold.

There's also the "coolness" factor which helps with word of mouth scenarios.

Get on my Tapatalk sig level bishes.
 
Question for you guys

Do you think repurposing 360 code or just downporting to from a PC would be cheaper for making WiiU ports?
What's going to take more people and work in your opinion?

I think it's situational
 
Question for you guys

Do you think repurposing 360 code or just downporting to from a PC would be cheaper for making WiiU ports?
What's going to take more people and work in your opinion?

I think it's situational
Yeah. It's definitely situational, depending on the genre, code structure, middleware support, and a ton of other factors. But I can see a couple advantage of porting from 360 to Wii U rather than the PC, which is that the game's specifications is more likely to run on the Wii U in terms of GPU/CPU power and the 360 game's controller support would be easier to translate.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Question for you guys

Do you think repurposing 360 code or just downporting to from a PC would be cheaper for making WiiU ports?
What's going to take more people and work in your opinion?

I think it's situational
Yeah. It's definitely situational, depending on the genre, code structure, middleware support, and a ton of other factors. But I can see a couple advantage of porting from 360 to Wii U rather than the PC, which is that the game's specifications is more likely to run on the Wii U in terms of GPU/CPU power and the 360 game's controller support would be easier to translate.

There is no question that the Wii U has some weaknesses compared to the 360 and PS3. From developer comments and knowing what we know, I would guess that SIMD heavy code that runs rather well on the PS3/360 tend to be the limiting factor more often than not in multi plats. Lots of code still has to be done in a serial fashion, but it does seem that more and more game game code made good use of the SIMD capabilities of the Cell and Xenon. It does seem to effect the number of characters on screen, and I find it interesting that developers are able to make those task work with SIMD code. I do wonder how much overhead is being left on the table withe the GPU.

I do have to wonder how much overhead on the GPU is going to waste with these multi plats. For example, the CPU is constantly being blamed for the lesser framerate, so if thats true, would a game like COD Ghost still have the same framerate at 900P instead of 720P?

Fuzzywuzzygames, do you think game engines like Unity make full blown 3D Platformers, Shooters, and RPG's something more and more Indie developers will develop in the future? Essentially, does Unity make creating the equivilent of Gamecube abitious projects possible from a small team. It seems like their is a chasm right now between Indie and AAA developers that isnt being filled. Basically, could an Indie developer create a first person shooter using Unity and the Unity shop for assets, or would it still take a large team to make that happen? Im not talking about trying to compete with the AAA experience or anything, but creating a something like Quake or Doom in HD with modern textures and lighting.
 
Well, gotta take every bit of promotion possible. IGN was kind enough to list this as a top upcoming Wii U game.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/29/top-wii-u-games-to-watch-out-for-in-2014?page=2
That bit of news took me totally by surprise as I was reading it expecting to see a great list and had absolutely no expectations of seeing this game there. Wow!
 
Question for you guys

Do you think repurposing 360 code or just downporting to from a PC would be cheaper for making WiiU ports?
What's going to take more people and work in your opinion?

I think it's situational
Yeah. It's definitely situational, depending on the genre, code structure, middleware support, and a ton of other factors. But I can see a couple advantage of porting from 360 to Wii U rather than the PC, which is that the game's specifications is more likely to run on the Wii U in terms of GPU/CPU power and the 360 game's controller support would be easier to translate.

There is no question that the Wii U has some weaknesses compared to the 360 and PS3. From developer comments and knowing what we know, I would guess that SIMD heavy code that runs rather well on the PS3/360 tend to be the limiting factor more often than not in multi plats. Lots of code still has to be done in a serial fashion, but it does seem that more and more game game code made good use of the SIMD capabilities of the Cell and Xenon. It does seem to effect the number of characters on screen, and I find it interesting that developers are able to make those task work with SIMD code. I do wonder how much overhead is being left on the table withe the GPU.

I do have to wonder how much overhead on the GPU is going to waste with these multi plats. For example, the CPU is constantly being blamed for the lesser framerate, so if thats true, would a game like COD Ghost still have the same framerate at 900P instead of 720P?

Fuzzywuzzygames, do you think game engines like Unity make full blown 3D Platformers, Shooters, and RPG's something more and more Indie developers will develop in the future? Essentially, does Unity make creating the equivilent of Gamecube abitious projects possible from a small team. It seems like their is a chasm right now between Indie and AAA developers that isnt being filled. Basically, could an Indie developer create a first person shooter using Unity and the Unity shop for assets, or would it still take a large team to make that happen? Im not talking about trying to compete with the AAA experience or anything, but creating a something like Quake or Doom in HD with modern textures and lighting.
The Wii U also has SIMD, but it's a bit more limited (less operations one instruction). But whether a company takes advantage of it and other optimizations depends on how much effort they're willing to put into it. From what I understand, the biggest issue on PS3/360 versus Wii U is the out of order execution which exists on the Wii U but not the 360/PS3. This means that a lot of code needs to be sort of hacked to get it to be optimized on the 360/PS3, but that slows it down on the Wii U (and oddly the PC as well, but that matters less as they can just set the PC requirements higher). At one point, I was working for EA as a student hire while I was studying and I was working on optimizations on some core libraries. Mind you, when I started working on it, the PS2 and Xbox were fully optimized, but the gamecube.. basically nothing. One of my tasks back then was to optimize the gamecube libraries.. as a student hire. :)
There's already a good number of games out there made in Unity and Unreal that somewhat rivals Gamecube ambitious projects. Today's indie teams are like yesterday's AAA teams. Just take a look at Doom's credits. It's only like a dozen people, and that includes designing/creating the engines which aren't needed anymore with Unity.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
Hey, you made the investor's meeting PDF, too. ;)
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2014/140130e.pdf

Essentially, does Unity make creating the equivilent of Gamecube abitious projects possible from a small team. It seems like their is a chasm right now between Indie and AAA developers that isnt being filled.
It does seem like a lot of indie games skew toward certain genres. On the eShop, we have Runner 2, Toki Tori, Gianna Sisters, Mighty Switch Force, etc. If XBLA could get Perfect Dark, we should get stuff like that, too.

I'd watch Renegade Kid on the FPS front, though. And if Sabarasa ever gets around to it, Protocol had a ton of potential (look at these screens; that was a WiiWare game).
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Question for you guys

Do you think repurposing 360 code or just downporting to from a PC would be cheaper for making WiiU ports?
What's going to take more people and work in your opinion?

I think it's situational
Yeah. It's definitely situational, depending on the genre, code structure, middleware support, and a ton of other factors. But I can see a couple advantage of porting from 360 to Wii U rather than the PC, which is that the game's specifications is more likely to run on the Wii U in terms of GPU/CPU power and the 360 game's controller support would be easier to translate.

There is no question that the Wii U has some weaknesses compared to the 360 and PS3. From developer comments and knowing what we know, I would guess that SIMD heavy code that runs rather well on the PS3/360 tend to be the limiting factor more often than not in multi plats. Lots of code still has to be done in a serial fashion, but it does seem that more and more game game code made good use of the SIMD capabilities of the Cell and Xenon. It does seem to effect the number of characters on screen, and I find it interesting that developers are able to make those task work with SIMD code. I do wonder how much overhead is being left on the table withe the GPU.

I do have to wonder how much overhead on the GPU is going to waste with these multi plats. For example, the CPU is constantly being blamed for the lesser framerate, so if thats true, would a game like COD Ghost still have the same framerate at 900P instead of 720P?

Fuzzywuzzygames, do you think game engines like Unity make full blown 3D Platformers, Shooters, and RPG's something more and more Indie developers will develop in the future? Essentially, does Unity make creating the equivilent of Gamecube abitious projects possible from a small team. It seems like their is a chasm right now between Indie and AAA developers that isnt being filled. Basically, could an Indie developer create a first person shooter using Unity and the Unity shop for assets, or would it still take a large team to make that happen? Im not talking about trying to compete with the AAA experience or anything, but creating a something like Quake or Doom in HD with modern textures and lighting.
The Wii U also has SIMD, but it's a bit more limited (less operations one instruction). But whether a company takes advantage of it and other optimizations depends on how much effort they're willing to put into it. From what I understand, the biggest issue on PS3/360 versus Wii U is the out of order execution which exists on the Wii U but not the 360/PS3. This means that a lot of code needs to be sort of hacked to get it to be optimized on the 360/PS3, but that slows it down on the Wii U (and oddly the PC as well, but that matters less as they can just set the PC requirements higher). At one point, I was working for EA as a student hire while I was studying and I was working on optimizations on some core libraries. Mind you, when I started working on it, the PS2 and Xbox were fully optimized, but the gamecube.. basically nothing. One of my tasks back then was to optimize the gamecube libraries.. as a student hire. :)
There's already a good number of games out there made in Unity and Unreal that somewhat rivals Gamecube ambitious projects. Today's indie teams are like yesterday's AAA teams. Just take a look at Doom's credits. It's only like a dozen people, and that includes designing/creating the engines which aren't needed anymore with Unity.
Yea, it has SIMD, but its paired singles do not deliver near the floating point performance that the VMX128 units on the Xenon and the SPE's on the Cell do. I dont personally see that is an issue that cant be avoided, there are always multiple ways to skin a cat. Basically, if a developer set out to create a game on Wii U there isnt anything that they could do on 360 or PS3 that they cant do on Wii U, the same core experience could easily be created.

I have Nano Assault Neo, Trine 2, Runner 2, Toko Tori and just downloaded Giana Sisters last night for my Wii U, and I like all these games, but I feel like the Indie scene could grow to cover an even wider offering in the eshop. I am not at all saying they should mimic what the AAA studios are doing, that killed Precursor Games before they even started. If they had used Unity as their game engine, they could have created graphics that were better than Eternal Darkness on Gamecube, and ran in HD with far better textures, lighting, shadows and so on. They were so focused on trying to deliver cutting edge graphics with the Cry engine that they let it kill the game. The story and insanity effects were the hallmark achievement that made Eternal Darkness a cult classic, not the graphics.

I just think there is a lot of opportunity for Indies right now with the Wii U to brings some experiences to the Wii U that the large publishers are neglecting. Traditional turn based RPG's have taken a back seat for the majority of publishers, but I believe there is still a market for those. I know I would love to see a game like Ogre Battle 64 hit the eshop.
 
Question for you guys

Do you think repurposing 360 code or just downporting to from a PC would be cheaper for making WiiU ports?
What's going to take more people and work in your opinion?

I think it's situational
Yeah. It's definitely situational, depending on the genre, code structure, middleware support, and a ton of other factors. But I can see a couple advantage of porting from 360 to Wii U rather than the PC, which is that the game's specifications is more likely to run on the Wii U in terms of GPU/CPU power and the 360 game's controller support would be easier to translate.

There is no question that the Wii U has some weaknesses compared to the 360 and PS3. From developer comments and knowing what we know, I would guess that SIMD heavy code that runs rather well on the PS3/360 tend to be the limiting factor more often than not in multi plats. Lots of code still has to be done in a serial fashion, but it does seem that more and more game game code made good use of the SIMD capabilities of the Cell and Xenon. It does seem to effect the number of characters on screen, and I find it interesting that developers are able to make those task work with SIMD code. I do wonder how much overhead is being left on the table withe the GPU.

I do have to wonder how much overhead on the GPU is going to waste with these multi plats. For example, the CPU is constantly being blamed for the lesser framerate, so if thats true, would a game like COD Ghost still have the same framerate at 900P instead of 720P?

Fuzzywuzzygames, do you think game engines like Unity make full blown 3D Platformers, Shooters, and RPG's something more and more Indie developers will develop in the future? Essentially, does Unity make creating the equivilent of Gamecube abitious projects possible from a small team. It seems like their is a chasm right now between Indie and AAA developers that isnt being filled. Basically, could an Indie developer create a first person shooter using Unity and the Unity shop for assets, or would it still take a large team to make that happen? Im not talking about trying to compete with the AAA experience or anything, but creating a something like Quake or Doom in HD with modern textures and lighting.
The Wii U also has SIMD, but it's a bit more limited (less operations one instruction). But whether a company takes advantage of it and other optimizations depends on how much effort they're willing to put into it. From what I understand, the biggest issue on PS3/360 versus Wii U is the out of order execution which exists on the Wii U but not the 360/PS3. This means that a lot of code needs to be sort of hacked to get it to be optimized on the 360/PS3, but that slows it down on the Wii U (and oddly the PC as well, but that matters less as they can just set the PC requirements higher). At one point, I was working for EA as a student hire while I was studying and I was working on optimizations on some core libraries. Mind you, when I started working on it, the PS2 and Xbox were fully optimized, but the gamecube.. basically nothing. One of my tasks back then was to optimize the gamecube libraries.. as a student hire. :)
There's already a good number of games out there made in Unity and Unreal that somewhat rivals Gamecube ambitious projects. Today's indie teams are like yesterday's AAA teams. Just take a look at Doom's credits. It's only like a dozen people, and that includes designing/creating the engines which aren't needed anymore with Unity.
Yea, it has SIMD, but its paired singles do not deliver near the floating point performance that the VMX128 units on the Xenon and the SPE's on the Cell do. I dont personally see that is an issue that cant be avoided, there are always multiple ways to skin a cat. Basically, if a developer set out to create a game on Wii U there isnt anything that they could do on 360 or PS3 that they cant do on Wii U, the same core experience could easily be created.

I have Nano Assault Neo, Trine 2, Runner 2, Toko Tori and just downloaded Giana Sisters last night for my Wii U, and I like all these games, but I feel like the Indie scene could grow to cover an even wider offering in the eshop. I am not at all saying they should mimic what the AAA studios are doing, that killed Precursor Games before they even started. If they had used Unity as their game engine, they could have created graphics that were better than Eternal Darkness on Gamecube, and ran in HD with far better textures, lighting, shadows and so on. They were so focused on trying to deliver cutting edge graphics with the Cry engine that they let it kill the game. The story and insanity effects were the hallmark achievement that made Eternal Darkness a cult classic, not the graphics.

I just think there is a lot of opportunity for Indies right now with the Wii U to brings some experiences to the Wii U that the large publishers are neglecting. Traditional turn based RPG's have taken a back seat for the majority of publishers, but I believe there is still a market for those. I know I would love to see a game like Ogre Battle 64 hit the eshop.


Yup. The Xenon/Cell's SIMD units are better, but the Wii U has GPGPU, which is even better still. So I'd say there's no concern for the lack of SIMD on the Wii U.
And I agree about how Precursor Games approached it. It's very easy for a game company to go overboard with scope. We're no different though - our scope exploded when this was supposed to be a simple mobile title and eventually turned into this console game, especially with a team of mainly 2-3 people. Only saving grace for us is that it was easier for us to survive with how we budgeted our game (ie. profit sharing, working mostly on our spare time, etc.).
And yeah, totally! I see the indie scene giving us the types of games that big companies neglect because they don't sell millions of copies. It's like the time I remember seeing Bastion and was really excited about seeing a rebirth of a 2D ARPG.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
I am happy that your game did expand beyond a simple mobile game. I really like the change of pace from what the big publishers are producing. Looking forward to checking out Armillo. I really appreciate your participation here on the forums. Its super cool to get a developers opinion on things.
 

Menashe

Moderator
Moderator
I heard that the sexiest Nintendo Enthusiast writer is going to be dropping a preview of this game very soon. Wonder who that could be?
They haven't asked me to do it yet, but ok.

;)
You guys heard wrong. While I did preview the game (and it's an instant classic), I won't have time write up anything. I've passed that job along to the un-sexiest editor, Shawn, to complete instead of me.
 
I'll be there at GDC for those who are/will be there.
Armillo is hosted by (the one and only) Nintendo! An extended version of Armillo will be demoed, and I will be on-site to show off Armillo running in the Wii U Unity Editor.
I'll be there on Wednesday (10am-2pm), Thursday (2pm-6pm), and Friday (10am-3pm).
Cheers!
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
Game is done! But going through compliance will take some more time to get through, so the game is unfortunately delayed. This time, we're waiting for our game to be fully approved before announcing a new date. Good news is that we're also setting a discounted introductory price for the game.

http://www.gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=227930
Wow, you guys are quite generous with the discounted price for the first three weeks. It sounds like you've put a lot of hard work into this, so I look forward to giving it a try. :mthumb:
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Its a day one buy for me even if I dont have time to play it right away. Im glad you guys took your time and got everything to your level of expectations. Good work, and I look forward to checking out Armillo.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Just got done with the first set of levels. I live everything, but the framerate, especially in the first level could use some attention. I applaud the developer for such an ambitious project, and hope it does well on the eshop. Game reminds me a bit of Sonic 3D Blast.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
Huge improvement in the gamers performance after the recent patch. I think the game runs in 60fps, but not to sure that all the animations do. The game still doesnt look 60fps, but its not to the point where its very fluid, and doesnt hinder gameplay. Excellent job FuzzyWuzzyGames. Not sure how great Armillo has done on the eshop, but hopefully your game does well across all platforms, cause its a very nice game.
 
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