Metroid General
- Thread starter Koenig
- Start date
@EvilTw1n , @CitizenOfVerona , @Karkashan , @Aki , @BobSilencieux , @Ridleyschild , @FriedShoes , @Juegos , @Goodtwin , @mattavelle1 , @TheAmazingLSB , @Shoulder , @simplyTravis , @Mr-Chris And anyone else who I missed in my sleep deprived caffeine sustained state.
Super Metroid
I used to play Super Metroid quite a lot back in the 90's, never really went in for all the more advanced moves like mock-balling, but still managed through pure optimisation to get my 100% completion time down to 1.45. Well it's been a long time since those days, and quite a while since I played it last on the Wii U, so obviously the knowledge has deserted me somewhat. I want to try to first remember the prescribed path through each unique item or ability, then figure out some faster routes using reliable tricks. I want to get back down below 2 hours with 100% items.
1. Critical path for beginners
Morph ball --> missiles --> bomb --> charge shot --> super missiles --> spazer --> hi-jump boots --> Varia suit --> wave beam --> speed booster --> ice beam --> power bombs --> grappling beam --> x-ray scope --> gravity suit --> space jump --> plasma beam --> spring ball --> screw attack.
This is my best recollection of the intended route through all items. A couple of things I'm not too sure of, like maybe the wave beam is meant to come later, and the x-ray scope could probably move around a bit, and spring ball and plasma beam are probably interchangeable.
Obviously this route involves a lot of going backwards and forwards between areas that you can avoid with a few simple tricks (eg. going all the way down to norfair for the hi-jump boots to then go back up to brinstar to fight kraid for the Varia suit, when you could simply bomb-jump to kraid's lair or even do a tight wall jump in there too).
2. Faster order of collecting items
[Under construction, any help appreciated]
I used to play Super Metroid quite a lot back in the 90's, never really went in for all the more advanced moves like mock-balling, but still managed through pure optimisation to get my 100% completion time down to 1.45. Well it's been a long time since those days, and quite a while since I played it last on the Wii U, so obviously the knowledge has deserted me somewhat. I want to try to first remember the prescribed path through each unique item or ability, then figure out some faster routes using reliable tricks. I want to get back down below 2 hours with 100% items.
1. Critical path for beginners
Morph ball --> missiles --> bomb --> charge shot --> super missiles --> spazer --> hi-jump boots --> Varia suit --> wave beam --> speed booster --> ice beam --> power bombs --> grappling beam --> x-ray scope --> gravity suit --> space jump --> plasma beam --> spring ball --> screw attack.
This is my best recollection of the intended route through all items. A couple of things I'm not too sure of, like maybe the wave beam is meant to come later, and the x-ray scope could probably move around a bit, and spring ball and plasma beam are probably interchangeable.
Obviously this route involves a lot of going backwards and forwards between areas that you can avoid with a few simple tricks (eg. going all the way down to norfair for the hi-jump boots to then go back up to brinstar to fight kraid for the Varia suit, when you could simply bomb-jump to kraid's lair or even do a tight wall jump in there too).
2. Faster order of collecting items
[Under construction, any help appreciated]
I don't consider myself a big Mertroid fan, but a huge Prime fan. I love the Prime series, all three of them. I know a lot of people love the first Prime, but were less impressed with the follow ups. I love them all. So when Nintendo dropped that Metroid Prime 4 logo back at E3 I was jacked. It is all I wanted. Just let me know it is in development, and for now I will be satisfied.
@Koenig
You said in another thread that you were looking forward to what a Metroid Prime game could look like on an HD console, and I believe your wish will be granted next E3. Even though it wont be Retro developing it, I believe Nintendo will certainly be looking to deliver a very technically impressive game.
@Koenig
You said in another thread that you were looking forward to what a Metroid Prime game could look like on an HD console, and I believe your wish will be granted next E3. Even though it wont be Retro developing it, I believe Nintendo will certainly be looking to deliver a very technically impressive game.
Aye that. I am really looking forward to what they can pull off, both in refference the the Metroid series and its grpahical achievements. I am still a little apprehensive about the direction the series might take (You all know me, i'm always a positive and cheery guy like that.) but one thing I can always expect from Nintendo is an absurd level of polish.
I alluded to it in the other thread, but Im hoping that the next Prime 4 uses a similar progression system to the original trilogy to load its rooms one or two at time, allowing the system put all of its power into them at once while still retaining the general labyrinthine feel of the game.
I am curious though, what about the Prime series stuck out to you that the original Metroid titles lacked?
I alluded to it in the other thread, but Im hoping that the next Prime 4 uses a similar progression system to the original trilogy to load its rooms one or two at time, allowing the system put all of its power into them at once while still retaining the general labyrinthine feel of the game.
I am curious though, what about the Prime series stuck out to you that the original Metroid titles lacked?
That's the problem, I don't really remember. I remember getting very good at the game, being able to do things in a single try, dispatching the bosses quickly etc etc but there's no way I can remember the way I went about collecting all the items. I'm hoping to use this thread, and my SNES Mini, to get that good again.
One one hand I would "want" to see a popper remake of Super Metroid, but on the other hand (and four of the 5 fingers of the first hand) I do not want to see them even try to. Super Metroid was at the apex of what could be done on the SNES both in terms of game design and graphical fidelity, to not only recapture the cohesion of that game but also improve on it is a monumental task.
As much as I liked Samus Returns, I honestly don't think that in its current form the engine could recapture either the responsiveness of the game-play nor the crispness of the old sprite art. Maybe a Switch version could do better, but I am still hesitant to see Super Metroid converted into the format used in Samus Returns. At this point I would prefer if Mercury steam got to work on a new 2D Metroid and see what they are really capable of when left to their own devices; if they an pull that off well, I would be far more inclined to see them work on Super.
As much as I liked Samus Returns, I honestly don't think that in its current form the engine could recapture either the responsiveness of the game-play nor the crispness of the old sprite art. Maybe a Switch version could do better, but I am still hesitant to see Super Metroid converted into the format used in Samus Returns. At this point I would prefer if Mercury steam got to work on a new 2D Metroid and see what they are really capable of when left to their own devices; if they an pull that off well, I would be far more inclined to see them work on Super.
AND WAHA, I can now segue into a topic that I've been seeing pop up recently, although I suspect has been around since Prime walked its way into the franchise and only crept its way back into the conversation because of a dumb line said in Mark Brown's Metroid 2 video.
How do you guys feel about the way Samus carries herself in the Power/Varia Suit? There seems to be 2 camps in this. One sees Samus as a "tank". In the past it was due to limitations of the console. Metroid 1 and 2 she did move a bit tankish. Of course Metroid Prime series she's pretty much all tank in terms of movement, very few moments where she shows off any agility or speed. Tank, I've heard, also refers to how hardy and unstoppable she is, but I dont really give this shit any thought since I've been killed by bugs and weeds in Metroid games. Unstoppable, sure, her weapon power at the end of games is pretty powerful.
Also she looks like a tank, so being so fast and agile goes against her design.
Then there's the other camp, the portrayal which Mark Brown carelessly called "Bayonetta-ish" (paraphrase). This camp prefers Samus as a fast, agile, action girl. This style is most clearly defined in Other M and Samus Returns, although I'd argue we see hints of it in Super, Fusion and ZM. Samus moves fast, uses dodges and counters to get a leg-up on enemies, and uses her agility to protect and evade from attacks. She's also way more hands on and superhuman.
Honestly, I see these things as petty points of contention. Other M being complete objective shit has made people fear the idea that Samus could be a lot more tough and scary than she already is. Thats a shame. Maybe Samus Returns brings back some of that good will and this portrayal will be more acceptable and not shooed away as "Nintendo trying to turn Samus into Bayonetta" (which sounds awesome imo, but whatever, nerds)
How do you guys feel about the way Samus carries herself in the Power/Varia Suit? There seems to be 2 camps in this. One sees Samus as a "tank". In the past it was due to limitations of the console. Metroid 1 and 2 she did move a bit tankish. Of course Metroid Prime series she's pretty much all tank in terms of movement, very few moments where she shows off any agility or speed. Tank, I've heard, also refers to how hardy and unstoppable she is, but I dont really give this shit any thought since I've been killed by bugs and weeds in Metroid games. Unstoppable, sure, her weapon power at the end of games is pretty powerful.
Also she looks like a tank, so being so fast and agile goes against her design.
Then there's the other camp, the portrayal which Mark Brown carelessly called "Bayonetta-ish" (paraphrase). This camp prefers Samus as a fast, agile, action girl. This style is most clearly defined in Other M and Samus Returns, although I'd argue we see hints of it in Super, Fusion and ZM. Samus moves fast, uses dodges and counters to get a leg-up on enemies, and uses her agility to protect and evade from attacks. She's also way more hands on and superhuman.
Honestly, I see these things as petty points of contention. Other M being complete objective shit has made people fear the idea that Samus could be a lot more tough and scary than she already is. Thats a shame. Maybe Samus Returns brings back some of that good will and this portrayal will be more acceptable and not shooed away as "Nintendo trying to turn Samus into Bayonetta" (which sounds awesome imo, but whatever, nerds)
@Juegos I think Samus's controls were slickest in Zero Mission, with Super and Fusion falling close behind.
@FriedShoes I guess I fall somewhere between. I love flashy moves just as much as the next person, but what matters to me most is that the game-play reflects what Samus is doing; I certainly don't want Samus to turn into "Bayonetta, but I also don't want her to be a slogish "tank" either. So long as the gameplay's "rhythm" and Samus's portrayal synch up with each other, ill probably be fine with it.
@FriedShoes I guess I fall somewhere between. I love flashy moves just as much as the next person, but what matters to me most is that the game-play reflects what Samus is doing; I certainly don't want Samus to turn into "Bayonetta, but I also don't want her to be a slogish "tank" either. So long as the gameplay's "rhythm" and Samus's portrayal synch up with each other, ill probably be fine with it.
My argument for Samus being the fastest and most fluid in Super rests on these two things that no other Metroid game has allowed: a run button, and conservation of momentum.
In Super, having the run button available gives Samus a range of speed similar to that of 2D Mario, where you have control over how fast you want to go by holding the run button a certain amount of time. You might want to go as fast as you can, or only halfway there by jumping before you reach maximum speed. There is a good deal of freedom in platforming when you become adept at controlling your speed like this.
The thing that makes that work is the fact that you carry your ground momentum when you are airborne, and you don't slow down until you hit the ground. This momentum is even carried over vertically, so that when you jump while running on an incline, you will jump higher than normal. There is even a trick that consists of running on the ground, jumping to conserve the momentum, and morphing into a ball as soon as you land in order to conserve a higher speed than is normally attainable during morph ball; this is how you can obtain the super missile and the Ice Beam before beating the Spore Spawn or getting the Speed Booster.
There is also another important element that has been in another Metroid game - but not one made by Nintendo. In Another Metroid 2 Remake, you can consistently wall-jump on the same wall, just like in Super. In every other 2D Metroid game since, you are forcefully pushed away from a wall when you climb it, heavily limiting vertical movement.
There are definitely two things that make later Metroid games some fluidity of their own, namely having the Spring Ball earlier and being able to climb ledges (and climbing into morph ball). That said, Super had its own way of dealing with this: you could morph into a ball quickly after jumping, essentially performing the same function, though requiring much more effort.
To me, this kind of depth to the controls is what makes Super more fun with every replay. I never truly master the controls, but always get a little better, and can see the results in my play.
In Super, having the run button available gives Samus a range of speed similar to that of 2D Mario, where you have control over how fast you want to go by holding the run button a certain amount of time. You might want to go as fast as you can, or only halfway there by jumping before you reach maximum speed. There is a good deal of freedom in platforming when you become adept at controlling your speed like this.
The thing that makes that work is the fact that you carry your ground momentum when you are airborne, and you don't slow down until you hit the ground. This momentum is even carried over vertically, so that when you jump while running on an incline, you will jump higher than normal. There is even a trick that consists of running on the ground, jumping to conserve the momentum, and morphing into a ball as soon as you land in order to conserve a higher speed than is normally attainable during morph ball; this is how you can obtain the super missile and the Ice Beam before beating the Spore Spawn or getting the Speed Booster.
There is also another important element that has been in another Metroid game - but not one made by Nintendo. In Another Metroid 2 Remake, you can consistently wall-jump on the same wall, just like in Super. In every other 2D Metroid game since, you are forcefully pushed away from a wall when you climb it, heavily limiting vertical movement.
There are definitely two things that make later Metroid games some fluidity of their own, namely having the Spring Ball earlier and being able to climb ledges (and climbing into morph ball). That said, Super had its own way of dealing with this: you could morph into a ball quickly after jumping, essentially performing the same function, though requiring much more effort.
To me, this kind of depth to the controls is what makes Super more fun with every replay. I never truly master the controls, but always get a little better, and can see the results in my play.
This is one of the reasons I simply cannot get enough of Super Metroid, and was slightly turned off by Samus Returns. The slow run speed (lack of speed booster), inability to single-wall wall jump, and -another one- the pathetic trivialisation of the space jump, make the game less fun to play. In Super, you can drop your space jump quite easily, and it needs real timing to utilise to the maximum. In Samus Returns, you just mash the jump button. Same with the wall jump. Way fewer inputs and way less skill required.
I know the "Hyper mode" was Metroid Prime 3's unique feature in a lot of ways (Not including the inclusion of the hyper beam for various bosses in the series), but I would love to see that ability make a return in some format in Prime 4. Perhaps they could bring back the "Reserve tanks" from Super Metroid and combine them with Hyper mode. IE that Hyper mode ran of the enery in the Reserve Tanks, but not the regular energy tanks; that way it would be a choice: You finally filed up your reserve tanks, but do you hang on to the for health, or deplete them for extra damage? I don't know, but something like that would be interesting to see.
I always loved the idea of the reserve tanks, but they seemed a bit redundant considering they acted as little more than hidden energy tanks. If they found a way to bring them back and make them more versatile I think they could get a lot more use.
I always loved the idea of the reserve tanks, but they seemed a bit redundant considering they acted as little more than hidden energy tanks. If they found a way to bring them back and make them more versatile I think they could get a lot more use.
Geek Critique just publicly released his Other M analysis. I am curious as to what our other resident fans think of it? Pandora box or no, @EvilTw1n , @GaemzDood , @Shoulder , @Goodtwin , @simplyTravis , @repomech and everyone else who I forgot to mention.
Me I like Metroid Prime 1 on the gamecube. I like it more than Metroid Prime 2 and 3. Part 1 felt like a fantastic adventure exploration game. Fantastic stages teeming with life, good story and enviroments full of colour, and the sound tracks in that game are lovely. eg. the Phendrana Drifts sound track and the Tallon Over world soundtrack. And wooah, the stages in that game are fantastic to look at.
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I enjoyed all three Metroid Prime 3 games. A lot of people seem to adore Metroid Prime but didn't love the sequels nearly as much. All three were really good for me. Yes, Echoes has be drab at times while in the dark world, but in my opinion, its supposed to be unsettling to be there. The idea that you cant wait to get out of there means they nailed the atmosphere. Prime 3 brought along far more story and extra NPC's with some people feeling like they try to add a dash of Halo into the Metroid Prime universe. This may be true but it didn't ruin the experience for me. Prime 3 still has some of the most fascinating locales and when Prime Trilogy HD does release, Skytown is really going to knock peoples socks off with how gorgeous it is. The pointer controls worked really well, but I feel like the these games will work really well with gyro as well. Being able to lock on to an enemy and then adjust your aim with the gyro should work flawlessly. Gyro when used in FPS games that do not have lock on tend to be a little to slow reacting.
Prime 4 seems likely to be the big hitter for late 2022. I do not think it will skip Switch in favor of moving it to Switch 2, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it get a definitive version released for the launch of Switch 2.
Prime 4 seems likely to be the big hitter for late 2022. I do not think it will skip Switch in favor of moving it to Switch 2, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it get a definitive version released for the launch of Switch 2.
