Metroid: Samus Returns thread of conversartion, admiration, and frustration

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#1


Usually, any new Metroid game is something that causes an uproar, since the series can take generation-long breaks here and there. When Samus returns, she is usually followed by bedlam within the fandom for whatever the reason of the day is - 2D to 3D gameplay, perspective shifts, different development teams taking charge, very different styles of games, etc.

But when Samus Returns was announced, it was not with a bang, nor a whimper, but in a shadow. Prime 4 and its title placard got the love at E3, while the latest 2D offering was a post-Direct activity, one quite a few people seemed to sour on once they found out the game was being made by Mercury Steam. So here we are. Everyone wanted a new 2D Metroid, but no one seems to care, due to its supposed lack of development pedigree and because it is launching on a console that is past its prime years.

I just sunk 16 hours into Samus Returns. Was it worth it?

I. A fusion of old and new

The big ticket gameplay items are the melee counter and 360 aiming. Might as well get this out of the way: yes, it effects pacing. You absolutely can play this game quickly (the window for the counter is fairly wide, and you can do it in mid-air), but you are rewarded for being a bit more methodical. Once you unlock the wave beam, you're always going to have the temptation to shoot enemies fluttering at the corner of your screen (more on that later). This roots you to a spot on the ground, meaning turret aiming is back, and you'll be doing it more than ever. Eventually, once you get a feel for the mechanics, it turns into a bit more of a dance. Precise aim, then counter another enemy, then jump over the little spiky ball bastard rolling your way. All done with the circle pad, too, which got me a little sore in the early hours. D-pad movement in a 2D game is a thing of beauty to me. However, I think they made the right call here - again, because you are rewarded for that 360 aiming.

Still, by the time I got to about the 5th area of SR388? I was pretty much playing this like an older Metroid. A wider, more powerful beam and the space jump conspire to nudge the pacing to a twitchier, arcade-y feel. It's still not as fast as Super, but it does feel like the next logical step in the GBA-style of 'Troid. Which pretty much goes for the whole game.

The other big new addition are four Aeion abilities. If you've been on a blackout, I won't spoil them for you, but I will say that I wish they were used here a lot more. You can show off with them whenever you want, but there is so much more that could have been done with them. The entire game could have been built around them in the way that the rune abilities were integrated into Breath of the Wild. Perhaps that's for the next Metroid. One hopes.

II. Collaboration

"Ewww, it's Mercury Steam!" That seemed to be the main takeaway most people got from Samus Returns' reveal. The staff credits list about 60 people tied to direct development, tech support, manual editing, and special thanks (apart from localization, QA, and administration). Of them, 20 have Japanese names. So basically a third of the team was Nintendo, and they were concentrated at the decision-making level. If you were worried, you shouldn't have been.
[Oh, and the game was directed by Takehiko Hosokawa; the assistant director was Fumi Hayashi. Those are probably names to watch going forward.]

Of course, had people paid attention at E3, their fears may have been allayed.

"One thing I think it's really important to focus on, and I'd like to strongly reinforce that idea, we are one team during the course of this game. It's us working together." - Yoshio Sakamoto

And yes, the game feels that way. Samus Returns has the spit-polished, unflappable mechanical wizardry you expect from a Nintendo game. But you see some of Mercury Steam's verve here and there, between the flashy animations and wonderful art. Oh, and about that art? This is the most Prime-looking game that Sakamoto has ever made. The Chozo areas look like Retro did them. There's one room that seems like a call-out to the Chozo observatory. But it still retains some of the spirit of the older 2D 'Troids, too. It's a clever balancing act. And this is the only game that ever made me wish that I had a 3DS instead of a 2DS.

One last thing on the mind-meld between the developers? From that E3 interview, you can see that the interviewer noticed the similarity between the melee counter and the sense dodge. But the melee counter is of Mercury Steam's invention; it just happens to fit the 2D template as a stand-in for the sense dodge. You can see why Sakamoto and these guys got along and made this game together.

III. Look, Ma! No HUD.

Of all the surprises this game has, this was the one I wasn't expecting. Before Samus Returns, I didn't realize how much better Metroid would be with an uncluttered screen. It isn't that 2D Metroid had a horrendously cluttered screen before:



But seriously, it's so much easier to get lost in the game when all of that information is relegated to the second screen of the 3DS. Since I had already played AM2R, I was not expecting to marathon Samus Returns. But lo and behold, I saw 2 a.m. on the clock three times while playing this.

It also helps with the combat. You can paint in the corners with the Wave beam, and you'll want to, because you're probably gonna die a lot, otherwise. This game is not easy early on, and wasting enemies from afar helps. Even when you collect a good chunk of energy tanks, there are still two bosses near the end that will test you. There is one other boss that might make you throw your 3DS. It's all pattern recognition, as are the encounters with metroids (which can get a bit tedious after awhile). You're gonna get hit, and some of those hits will drain a lot of energy.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the progression structure. This is not a Super or Prime sort of map layout. You can backtrack to prior areas (there are warp points scattered throughout as a courtesy so you can do just that), but there really isn't much use in doing so. I finished the game with only 50% of my items, and it felt like more than enough. I'll still go back and get the rest, but they aren't needed. When you get lost, it'll be within the area you are exploring, because you forgot to spider ball up somewhere or didn't have what you needed to open a door yet. Samus Returns isn't mission based like Fusion, but the in-sector wandering feels a lot like it.

IV. The Force Awakens of Metroid

It's easy to read anything above and think this game feels drastically different than previous Metroid games. But it doesn't. Truly, this is a pretty "safe" version of the series. The combat abilities add some wrinkles, but you're still fundamentally running and shooting, morphball tunneling and bombing, getting lost and finding your way again. It's Metroid. It's what people have been asking for since 2004. There are no alienating risks here, which makes this feel very much like The Force Awakens.

@CitizenOfVerona called it "vanilla Metroid." I think that's probably the best way to put it. Some may take that as an insult, but it's not. Even when other games come along that try to use the Metroid formula, they never quite get whatever magic it is that Nintendo gets from Samus (looking at you, Axiom Verge). Vanilla Metroid tastes better than just about any other gameplay template out there.

Alright, forum. Your turn. Talk it up.
 
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Koenig

The Architect
#2
Vanilla Metroid sums it up pretty damn well. It gets all the broad strokes right, but tends to miss the finer points that I have come to expect from a Metroid game. I definitely have a bunch of little praises and complaints to pepper on about the game, but I think those are best saved for when others bring up the aspects directly.

I will say this however; it is a damn shame that the DS and 3DS never had a 2D Metroid game up to this point; it was a perfect fit. Having all the information on the bottom screen really made the exploration much more immersive and far less cluttered.
 

Koenig

The Architect
#3
End game spoiler: Please do not read unless you have beaten the game yourself.

I get the feeling most other people liked the end game twist where Ridley was the final boss and NOT the Queen metroid, but for me it is probably my biggest "complaint" with the entire game, at least when combined with the choice to make the Metroid a requirement to gather the rest of the items and power ups across the world.

On its own, I felt like the Ridley fight was a shoehorned attempt to capture the magic of Super Metroids ending and came at the cost of the thematic end and opening tones of Metroid II and Super Metroid. (Although they did do a decent job forboding Ridly by showing his red eyes in the background earlier in the game) However I also felt it was probably one of the most fun boss fights in the entire game due to the amount of room you had to maneuver and the constant eb and flow of combat.

The choice to make the baby Metroid a requirement to find the rest of the items in the game also felt very misplaced; It just really did not sit well with me that the end game ascent from fighting the Metroid Queen would be converted into a (albeit optional) fetch quest to get items that had been arbitrarily blocked of with all those crystals. I suspect that this is in large part why there were so many teliporter rooms placed around the map; as otherwise all of the items could have gathered in the initial pass-through each section.

That said, I think I would have been far less bitter with the Ridly fight at the end if it had been an extension of the Metroid Queen fight; that is to say that after beating the queen it would be a straight shot up to the ship with no save points or crystals to break.

That's more or less my thought on the end of the game; what are your thoughts on it?
 

Karkashan

Married to Chrom
#5
End game spoiler: Please do not read unless you have beaten the game yourself.

I get the feeling most other people liked the end game twist where Ridley was the final boss and NOT the Queen metroid, but for me it is probably my biggest "complaint" with the entire game, at least when combined with the choice to make the Metroid a requirement to gather the rest of the items and power ups across the world.

On its own, I felt like the Ridley fight was a shoehorned attempt to capture the magic of Super Metroids ending and came at the cost of the thematic end and opening tones of Metroid II and Super Metroid. (Although they did do a decent job forboding Ridly by showing his red eyes in the background earlier in the game) However I also felt it was probably one of the most fun boss fights in the entire game due to the amount of room you had to maneuver and the constant eb and flow of combat.

The choice to make the baby Metroid a requirement to find the rest of the items in the game also felt very misplaced; It just really did not sit well with me that the end game ascent from fighting the Metroid Queen would be converted into a (albeit optional) fetch quest to get items that had been arbitrarily blocked of with all those crystals. I suspect that this is in large part why there were so many teliporter rooms placed around the map; as otherwise all of the items could have gathered in the initial pass-through each section.

That said, I think I would have been far less bitter with the Ridly fight at the end if it had been an extension of the Metroid Queen fight; that is to say that after beating the queen it would be a straight shot up to the ship with no save points or crystals to break.

That's more or less my thought on the end of the game; what are your thoughts on it?
If I remember correctly, there were only 3 upgrades that actually required the baby Metroid. Several other power ups were obtainable using a mixture of various power ups and aeion abilities, but could be more easily obtained with the Baby.

praisegrima
 
#6
Today was a mess and while I wait for my food to be done so I can binge FF6 all night, I'll write my thoughts.

First two areas in the game I was gearing up for some heavy disappointment. It wasn't until area 3 where I thought the game really came into it's own. By this point you have more power ups and the game just feels better. I don't remember any other 2D Metroid being like that, but I haven't played any besides the fan remake in years. That said, even after the credits rolled I know this was as Metroid as Metroid could be. Even the new powers weren't that mandatory, and some just felt like a twist on prior ones. The time slowing mechanic just felt like a replacement for the run button in Super Metroid since both allows you to bypass bridges of crumbling blocks.

I dislike feeling like this. I truly did enjoy the game, and once it got going, I found myself playing until I went to bed. I had a blast, but why did I feel like this more than Link Between Worlds?

Then I got thinking, how exactly can you make a 2D Metroid feel completely fresh? I don't know if you can. Each game has the stand bys like screw attack and spazer beam, so by end's game you'll always be jumping continuously while shooting three beams. Can't take these out of fans will flip their shit. I think the Castlevania's did a good job, each game definitely have the same DNA but the soul system in Aria/Dawn of Sorror was different from the duo of Portrait of Ruin, which was different from the cards in Circle of the Moon, etc.

I'm no game designer so maybe I just can't think of much, but I think there's only so much you can change in Metroid without the cancellation petitions making the rounds. I can only think of two things.
1) Zero Suit Samus stealth game, which could be fun, but I think I hear those petitions already)
2) Go all in and make a balls-to-the-wall arcadey shooter. Keep the constant morph ball bombing to a minimum and make the level design in a way where you go fast and shoot many enemies rapidly. Not the biggest change admittedly.

Anyways, still enjoy it. And looking back, maybe my disappointment doesn't stem from the lack of innovation, because again, I loved Link Between Worlds and Bioshock 2. Maybe it's just tied to Metroid 2 itself. There's only three (?) non Metroid bosses and the environments all kinda feel the same. Maybe this post was pointless.
 
#7
I'm purposely making a separate post for this.


Basically, he likes a lot of Metroidvanias but isn't the biggest fan of Metroid due to cryptic bullshit. I'll admit, Super Metroid (and Symphony of the Night to a lesser extent) kinda scared me off of Metroidvanias for awhile. The first three times I beat Super, I had to look up a few things. Same with SotN for the first go. I thought Metroidvanias = cryptic as fuck for the longest time.

It wasn't until I played more non-Metroids or Casltevanias before I learned otherwise. When I first moved into this apartment three years ago, I binged 9 Castlevanias, and now I adore the genre.

But honestly, I rented Super as a kid and didn't understand, and that turned me off the series until Prime convinced me otherwise. Also honestly, it's because of how cryptic Super is is exactly why it's not my favorite. I know getting lost is part of the experience, but I feel like Super goes a bit too far sometimes. Again, it's been awhile since I played so maybe I was just being a dumb dumb.

It's weird though, part of the reason why I don't like the original Zelda on NES so much is because how cryptic it is, yet I enjoy Metroidvanias. Maybe I should try OG Zelda again, maybe I'm just an idiot.



If these posts don't make sense and they just ramble on, sorry. I'm pretty tired from today.
 

BobSilencieux

Well-Known Member
#9
@Koenig
I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the end of the game. It just felt weird to beat the "final boss" then have the baby Metroid essentially play the role of a power-up. Then I found myself rolling my eyes so hard when they shoehorned Ridley in as the defacto final boss.

The whole backtracking element I thought was handled less well than just about any other Metroid I can think of, and the extra teleporting around the map after beating the queen just destroyed the whole build-up to the actual denouement.
 

BobSilencieux

Well-Known Member
#10
Also wow, what a genuine load of utter shit. I just ended up watching a video on how to get the last few power-ups that are in areas with red spiky crystals, because I tried literally everything I could think of. Nowhere in the game or the manual is there ANY hint whatsoever about the new, never before seen tech you need to employ to get past those spikes. Like, how the **** was I supposed to figure that out on my own?
 

Koenig

The Architect
#11
Too be fair, I don't mind that little secret. I remember being stuck on that same spot and thought that I needed a powerup which I would get later, so I moved on. The power bomb trick is the least of this games problems (actually, I consider it a boon as it hearkens back to the secret moves and techniques in Super Metroid).

With that said, I still think that Samus Returns is a forgettable game. It is fun, it is Metroid, but it does nothing truly inspired to raise it above it brethren (and no, trying to copy paste moments from Super Metroid does not count as inspired); perhaps that is fine though because it does succeed at being a decent remake. In a world where AM2R exists though, it stands as a relatively inferior version.

(If Nintendo was smart, they would go through the effort of sprucing up the fan remake and releasing it on the Switch; never mind that it would not compete with the 3DS titles since the Switch has none at this point, they could even keep the same title of "Another Metroid 2 Remake" because it would be entirely accurate. Having bought Samus Returns, I would happily pay another $20-40 to buy Am2R on the Switch. There is room for more than one interpretation of Metroid in my heart, so long as it does not come at the cost of the other.)
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#15
Spoiler-y, plot-y post.

Yeah, I am - at best - ambivalent about Ridley being the "surprise" boss (halfway through the game, I was really hoping it would be robo-boss). Mechanically, the fight itself is good. But...it felt like a shoe-horned piece of fanservice. Kinda didn't fit. This is supposed to be the Metroid's game. We get dozens of Metroid fights. And we fight the Queen. Ridley shows up all the time...but a Queen doesn't. I felt like tossing him in at the last possible moment takes a bit of the specialness away from the Queen fight.

And if I'm being reeeeeeally pedantic, it also screws up the narrative continuity in Fusion.


"Pondering this fact, I realize I owe the metroid hatchling my life twice over."

Well, make it three, then...? This is only worth pointing out because a good chunk of Other M was there just to make Fusion make narrative sense ("here's why there's a frozen space dragon that would have otherwise blown up on Zebes," "here's why the CO is important," "here's why the G-Feds had Metroid cells around," etc.). And with one throwaway moment in a tacked-on boss fight, they kinda screwed Fusion up again. ...remake confirmed, I guess.

So yeah...I'm not a fan of Ridley being in this game. Wasn't needed.
 

Koenig

The Architect
#17
Spoiler-y, plot-y post.

Yeah, I am - at best - ambivalent about Ridley being the "surprise" boss (halfway through the game, I was really hoping it would be robo-boss). Mechanically, the fight itself is good. But...it felt like a shoe-horned piece of fanservice. Kinda didn't fit. This is supposed to be the Metroid's game. We get dozens of Metroid fights. And we fight the Queen. Ridley shows up all the time...but a Queen doesn't. I felt like tossing him in at the last possible moment takes a bit of the specialness away from the Queen fight.

And if I'm being reeeeeeally pedantic, it also screws up the narrative continuity in Fusion.


"Pondering this fact, I realize I owe the metroid hatchling my life twice over."

Well, make it three, then...? This is only worth pointing out because a good chunk of Other M was there just to make Fusion make narrative sense ("here's why there's a frozen space dragon that would have otherwise blown up on Zebes," "here's why the CO is important," "here's why the G-Feds had Metroid cells around," etc.). And with one throwaway moment in a tacked-on boss fight, they kinda screwed Fusion up again. ...remake confirmed, I guess.

So yeah...I'm not a fan of Ridley being in this game. Wasn't needed.
It does not help Super Metroid either. Doesn't Super Metroid take place almost immediately after Metroid II? If Samus literally just killed Riley, how the hell did he get reborn/cloned/rebuilt in the ten minutes it took Samus to drop the Metroid off at the research lab? Nevermind that since the Metroid clearly showed its affinity for Samus and fought against Ridley by siphoning his power, why the hell would the Space Pirates leave that same Metroid be left to roam free in the same area as Mother Brain?

I actually pity any new players to the series who start with Samus Returns and THEN play Super Metroid, as the surprise during the final fight of Super Metroid is likely going to be greatly diminished in the eyes of many new players due to it being a canonical "repeat" of Metroid II's ending.

The move to put Ridley at the end was definitely fan service, but it does far more harm to the series as a whole than it adds, let alone the narrative in Metroid II. Seeing how Sakamoto was the producer for this game, I am legitimately worried about what his intentions are for the series, and what exactly he has in mind for the narrative. I get the feeling that what he envisions for Metroid is vastly different than what the majority of its fanbase has come to expect. [/soiler]
 

Karkashan

Married to Chrom
#18
It does not help Super Metroid either. Doesn't Super Metroid take place almost immediately after Metroid II? If Samus literally just killed Riley, how the hell did he get reborn/cloned/rebuilt in the ten minutes it took Samus to drop the Metroid off at the research lab? Nevermind that since the Metroid clearly showed its affinity for Samus and fought against Ridley by siphoning his power, why the hell would the Space Pirates leave that same Metroid be left to roam free in the same area as Mother Brain?

I actually pity any new players to the series who start with Samus Returns and THEN play Super Metroid, as the surprise during the final fight of Super Metroid is likely going to be greatly diminished in the eyes of many new players due to it being a canonical "repeat" of Metroid II's ending.

The move to put Ridley at the end was definitely fan service, but it does far more harm to the series as a whole than it adds, let alone the narrative in Metroid II. Seeing how Sakamoto was the producer for this game, I am legitimately worried about what his intentions are for the series, and what exactly he has in mind for the narrative. I get the feeling that what he envisions for Metroid is vastly different than what the majority of its fanbase has come to expect. [/soiler]
We've got to remember that the scientists had the baby long enough to study it long enough to gather samples for the vaccine they would eventually create. Also we have no idea how long Samus stayed at the Ceres station to answer questions by the biologists, nor do we know how long space travel actually lasts in the Metroid universe. Also it may be that Ridley was simply knocked unconcious rather than killed, as only a piece of his armor remains when the X parasite attacks
 

Karkashan

Married to Chrom
#19
Also wow, what a genuine load of utter shit. I just ended up watching a video on how to get the last few power-ups that are in areas with red spiky crystals, because I tried literally everything I could think of. Nowhere in the game or the manual is there ANY hint whatsoever about the new, never before seen tech you need to employ to get past those spikes. Like, how the **** was I supposed to figure that out on my own?
I figured it out on accident. I thought "ooh, right the power bomb won't knock me out of the the spider ball, so I can just use that to clear these enemies" and then suddenly "woosh".

praisegrima
 

BobSilencieux

Well-Known Member
#20
The power bomb trick is the least of this games problems (actually, I consider it a boon as it hearkens back to the secret moves and techniques in Super Metroid).
Just on that point, and correct me if I'm misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that you didn't need to use any secret move to 100% Super Metroid. Every technique you needed to beat the game, even with 100% items, was shown to you in game or in the manual. Yes, secret moves are cool, but you should never be physically unable to beat the game without knowing them.
 

Koenig

The Architect
#21
@Karkashan What part of my statement do you disagree with? I am guessing it was me saying the game was "forgettable", and if so, what about the game stands out to you? (especially when compared to all other Metroid games)
 
#25
I, in a cruel twist of fate, might be parroting Socar here. But y'all cant be pleased, which is a headache considering how niche the fanbase is. Mere minutes after the video was posted I already saw people parrotting the points brought up, in a much more negative way. Suddenly Metroid 2 is being put on a pedestal? Good lord, what a nightmare Sakamoto has to deal with.
 

Koenig

The Architect
#26
There will always be a vocal minority of fans who will complain about anything, nothing new there. Don't pretend it is something unique to the Metroid series. With that said, I don't think anyone was putting Metroid II on a pedestal (Hell, before Other M it was the whipping boy of the franchise), but it is certainly worth noting when one of the few points it did manage to pull off well is completely missed by its own remake(s).
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#27
One more spoiler-y one (don't want to quote within a non-spoiler post, in case someone quotes).
We've got to remember that the scientists had the baby long enough to study it long enough to gather samples for the vaccine they would eventually create. Also we have no idea how long Samus stayed at the Ceres station to answer questions by the biologists, nor do we know how long space travel actually lasts in the Metroid universe. Also it may be that Ridley was simply knocked unconcious rather than killed, as only a piece of his armor remains when the X parasite attacks
True. Honestly, Ridley being knocked out does make some narrative sense for Super. If the Space Pirates want to keep up this whole Metroid menace thing, and find out Samus has been dispatched to SR388, who else would you send once you find out except your most powerful captain? And once defeated? He just wakes up and follows her to Ceres. When I defeated Ridley, I didn't think "he's dead." He had already played dead once during that boss fight, and I knew he was going to get right back up for Super.

I still am not the biggest fan of the inclusion of that fight, just because it kinda usurps the Queen battle and messes with Fusion's continuity a little bit. But it may fill in a bit of a gap for Super, the way you've mentioned it. Hadn't thought of it that way.
 
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EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#28
Alright, I'll bite. Lemme backtrack and watch this video.

(20 minutes later...)
I, in a cruel twist of fate, might be parroting Socar here. But y'all cant be pleased, which is a headache considering how niche the fanbase is. Mere minutes after the video was posted I already saw people parrotting the points brought up, in a much more negative way. Suddenly Metroid 2 is being put on a pedestal? Good lord, what a nightmare Sakamoto has to deal with.
Wow.

I wasn't expecting it to be that bad, but now that I've watched it...just wow. I will concede that this guy is probably nitpicking a bit; he seems to have enjoyed all of the games. But...

-That someone is essentially saying "yeah, it was so much scarier and more tense when they put save points 10 minutes from a boss fight" is stupid. That's old, bad game design.

-The end of SR is a "noisy, messy gauntlet" when there's actually...enemies onscreen? It's a videogame. Is the rest of Super "noisy" and "messy" because there are enemies around? Is Zero Mission "noisy" and "messy" because of fighting all of the Metroids en route to Mother Brain? It's more dangerous to have enemies that can chip your health away before an end boss. Isn't that "tense"?
[I'd have to go replay it to double check, but the scene he showed in the vid as leading up to the Queen has...metal gun enemies (y'know, the sort of thing a Metroid can't siphon from) and small fauna that either turns into a ball to become nearly invincible or looks to be the sort of creatures that live around and go in toxic acid. Sooooo...yeah.]

-"I'm uncomfortable killing all these Metroids." Does this guy pour out a 40 for every goomba he's stomped, too?

-Samus moves with great agility so Nintendo is "trying to turn her into Bayonetta"? Holy crap. One of the biggest reasons that 2D Metroids (from Super onward) are special is because Samus moves so gracefully.

-"Samus Returns" doesn't "get it" with the music? WTF?! It was done by Kenji fucking Yamamoto! I'm pretty sure he "gets" Metroid music. In fact, he is definitely the one that gets to tell us what Metroid music is. That's how it works when you're the composer who has created some of the greatest tunes in the history of the series. I wish there was some more original tune-age in SR, but that's just because I wanted to hear Yamamoto-san stretch and make new compositions.

I had to go see the "about" section of the author of this vid. I have a really hard time understanding how this experienced a gaming journalist made that video. Whew. I applaud anyone who puts their work out their for other people to critique it. But it sure helps when it doesn't stretch to the sort of sophistry of "I understand Metroid music better than the person who composes the best Metroid music."

This is why I've been saying for awhile now that the Metroid fandom is the worst fandom in all of gaming. I don't think it's even close. At least the video tried a slightly different debating tactic ("back in my day, things were better on the GameBoy, when you appreciated the gravity of killing that unrealistic sprite monster"). But since 2010, the rest of the fans have been yelling "no, put us back on a planet alone with Chozo statues to find" and "we want another 2D game" and "we want a modern Metroid 2." OK, all of those people wanted Vanilla Metroid. They got Vanilla Metroid, and...there is still bitching to be had. It's impossible.
 
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#29
The Federation Force announcement was the final straw in me paying serious attention to what the vast gaming population think. I'm quite happy playing games on my own time and making my own opinions on them.

Despite Metroid having some laughable "fans" out there, no franchise is safe. Smash Bros for 3DS/U, phew lad.

Not everyone can be as smart and handsome as myself. Maybe @EvilTw1n but the jury is out on that one.


Also it's been a few days since I beat Samus Returns, happy to say I look back on it fondly. Glad it was made.
 

Karkashan

Married to Chrom
#31
What part of my statement do you disagree with? I am guessing it was me saying the game was "forgettable", and if so, what about the game stands out to you? (especially when compared to all other Metroid games)
This game feels like they took what made Prime work and turned it into 2D. It's methodical, deliberate, but still fast and fluid like Other M, Fusion, etc.

Some memorable moments are:

Robot boss chase sequence
Multi-Room Metroid fights that have the creatures remember the damage they've taken against you
Probably the most enjoyable Metroid game to 100%, as many of the items have multiple methods to obtain and nothing feels like you have to be the ultimate master of movement to get.
The flashbug enemy that's actually more dangerous to you after you get the screw attack as coming into contact with it with that ability sets off its suicide attack and deals hefty damage.

Also I felt it was far superior to AM2R.

praisegrima
 

Koenig

The Architect
#32
This game feels like they took what made Prime work and turned it into 2D. It's methodical, deliberate, but still fast and fluid like Other M, Fusion, etc.

Some memorable moments are:

Robot boss chase sequence
Multi-Room Metroid fights that have the creatures remember the damage they've taken against you
Probably the most enjoyable Metroid game to 100%, as many of the items have multiple methods to obtain and nothing feels like you have to be the ultimate master of movement to get.
The flashbug enemy that's actually more dangerous to you after you get the screw attack as coming into contact with it with that ability sets off its suicide attack and deals hefty damage.

Also I felt it was far superior to AM2R.

praisegrima
I am glad you enjoyed the game, but with the exception of the Robot fight itself I feel competently the opposite in almost every respect. It was counter to what I enjoy about a Metroid game; (I guess that begs the question, what do you specifically want out of a Metroid game?)

The Robot chase scene was a low point for me (Although I liked the robot fight) as it felt cheap and out of context; Samus can take hits from the actual robot and get crushed inside his drill and tank them all during the actual fight; but if he so much as grazes you during the chase scene Samus instantly dies? What?

The Metroid fights where the they fled the room mid battle were more annoying than fun to me (Although I did enjoy fighting them when they did not run away) Although I do agree that the game had a much more methodical pace, I think the game feels much to slow for a 2D Metroid game.

I did really love the scan pulse(One of the best additions to this game, albeit a modification of the visor from Super), but they way most of the items were setup and the forced "Metroid powerup" to get some of the items made me really dislike the item progression in the game.

The flash bug enemies I absolutely DESPISE, as they felt more cheap than anything else and only served to slow the pace of movement.

I can't say anything about the gameplay of AM2R, but everything else I have seen from the game seems far more inspired and on point to me than what I played through in Samus Returns. The "Tower", the weapons factory, the water works, the escape scene, the rescue team getting massacred, while the bosses like the chorizo, guardian, tester, and even the queen metroid fight all seemed far more interesting to me than the few bosses in Samus returns (With again, the exception of the mining robot)
 

Juegos

All mods go to heaven.
Moderator
#33
while the bosses like the chorizo
Chorizo is pretty boss for sure.



Real talk, the Torizo boss fight in AM2R is a ton of fun, and a big surprise the first time you fight it. Shame that you got all those bosses spoiled, you should have just played the game.
 

Koenig

The Architect
#34
Chorizo is pretty boss for sure.
Whoops, my bad.



Real talk, the Torizo boss fight in AM2R is a ton of fun, and a big surprise the first time you fight it.
The jet packs did seem a bit silly, but in every playthough I have seen of it I can't help but smile at the gameplay and the surprise factor. I may not have experienced the surprise first hand, but I can certainly appreciate it.

Shame that you got all those bosses spoiled, you should have just played the game.
Nintendo should not have shafted the project; even as a fan-game it is a huge boon for the Metroid series. I know it has been stated to death that it was in their legal right to do so, but it would have been a far wiser to decision to either let it live on or partner with the fan team who created it to bring it to the Switch. (Still I do plan on downloading the game once I actually find a place I trust enough to actually click on the download link) Nintendo may have tried to snuff the game out, but really the game is already on the Internet; there is nothing they can do to stop it for good. All they managed to do by taking down the game (and supposedly demanding it be removed from the video game awards) is hurt their own reputation in the process.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#35
On the vid analyses...well, I just call 'em like I see 'em. I actually do like Metroid 2; I remember playing it on my 2DS for the first time and thinking "hmm, this actually holds up better than the original." But when someone wants to praise something like the save points from the original? That's just being a gaming hipster. The whole point of a remake is to fix the things like that, the things that don't hold up over time.

Samus Returns was not designed to be wholly faithful to the original template, because the original template had some serious flaws. The entire point of SR was to update Metroid 2 with the mechanical innovations the series has had since Super. I think it succeeded there, but YMMV.

I still think SR is a little vanilla. Some of that is because they did have to hew to the structure of Metroid 2. I'd be really interested to see what this team could do with a post-Fusion Metroid, where they could open it up and make something completely new.
This game feels like they took what made Prime work and turned it into 2D. It's methodical, deliberate, but still fast and fluid like Other M, Fusion, etc.
In some places, this is really true. The 5th area really does feel like a 2D Retro game, like they took one of those Prime rooms that was designed with vertical traversal in mind and built a whole area around the idea.
Also I felt it was far superior to AM2R.
I'm gonna need to replay it. I'm replaying Super right now, just because I'm apartment-sitting for my upstairs neighbor, and he has a Rasberry Pi and I wanted to check it out.

One thing I immediately notice having gone from SR to Super is that SR does feel more dense. Maybe it's because I've only played it once.
Chorizo is pretty boss for sure.

Why you gotta make a guy slobber on his keyboard like that?
 
#36
So turns out I'm sort of full of shit.

Had a lazy night, played some Cuphead, but also booted up Sonic Mania for a few levels. Then it hit me, the last couple of years nostalgia has been running through games pretty heavily. With Nintendo that's basically business as usual but it's not just them. Yooka Laylee, Sonic Mania, even Doom 2016 and Hitman. All marketed themselves as a throwback to yesteryear or their series' roots. I thoroughly enjoyed all of them, so much so that they're GOTY contenders for myself. So evidently, nostalgic throwbacks don't bother me.

I guess the difference with Samus Returns is that since Metroid is in my top 5 favorite series, I guess I naturally had most expectations? I picked up Doom from recommendations but I didn't expect it to be that great. I bought Yooka Laylee because I love Banja Kazooie, and it exceeded my expectations as well. Since I always knew 2D Metroid was fantastic, and even though hype culture is kinda dumb, I just automatically had those expectations of Fusion and Zero Mission (let's be real, we'll never get another Super-type game again).

Even so, it's not like I'm disappointed in SR. Once Area 3 got started I couldn't put it down, even going back to 100% it. Not gonna lie, I kinda want to replay it again already. That said, it's template is Metroid 2. Only having a few non-Metroid bosses and all environments being mostly caves are just things that are associated with 2. A remake/re-imagining/re-whatever can only do so much.

I'm all in favor of giving this team a go at Metroid 5.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#39
I'm purposely making a separate post for this.


Basically, he likes a lot of Metroidvanias but isn't the biggest fan of Metroid due to cryptic bullshit. I'll admit, Super Metroid (and Symphony of the Night to a lesser extent) kinda scared me off of Metroidvanias for awhile. The first three times I beat Super, I had to look up a few things. Same with SotN for the first go. I thought Metroidvanias = cryptic as fuck for the longest time.

It wasn't until I played more non-Metroids or Casltevanias before I learned otherwise. When I first moved into this apartment three years ago, I binged 9 Castlevanias, and now I adore the genre.

But honestly, I rented Super as a kid and didn't understand, and that turned me off the series until Prime convinced me otherwise. Also honestly, it's because of how cryptic Super is is exactly why it's not my favorite. I know getting lost is part of the experience, but I feel like Super goes a bit too far sometimes. Again, it's been awhile since I played so maybe I was just being a dumb dumb.

It's weird though, part of the reason why I don't like the original Zelda on NES so much is because how cryptic it is, yet I enjoy Metroidvanias. Maybe I should try OG Zelda again, maybe I'm just an idiot.



If these posts don't make sense and they just ramble on, sorry. I'm pretty tired from today.
Meant to come back to this one. I get the dude's complaints: the reason Metroid games are a niche, acquired taste is because they're distinct, not in "isolation" or "atmosphere" or what have you, but the feeling of being lost. You can be alone in any game; it's different to be alone and a little bit clueless about what you're supposed to do (and not in a Zelda "I can't figure this puzzle out right now so I'll go do something else"-way).

For me, that's what makes Super borderline magic. I only play it maybe once a year. That's just enough time to forget where things are. Metroid 3 is nearly as mysterious to me now as it is the first time I played it for that reason. But to bring that back to the prior discussion on Metroid 2...there's a border between "old" design being archaic and "old" design being clever. Super is clever, more often than not, IMO.

The Aeion abilities in SR might really be a way forward for the series, in this respect. It could open the door for those who aren't into wandering.
I guess the difference with Samus Returns is that since Metroid is in my top 5 favorite series, I guess I naturally had most expectations? I picked up Doom from recommendations but I didn't expect it to be that great. I bought Yooka Laylee because I love Banja Kazooie, and it exceeded my expectations as well. Since I always knew 2D Metroid was fantastic, and even though hype culture is kinda dumb, I just automatically had those expectations of Fusion and Zero Mission (let's be real, we'll never get another Super-type game again).
Nah, I feel you on it. It's frickin' Metroid. We waited over a decade for another 2D one. We get it, and it's...really good. But even though it has a few clever additions, because it's a remake, it's not really a step forward for the franchise. It's the game everyone else wanted, but not necessarily the one that people like us wanted.
I'm all in favor of giving this team a go at Metroid 5.
Yeah, same. Mercury Steam did pretty good under Nintendo's hand, and I'd like to see what they'd do next when it's all new ideas that the development team is throwing up against the wall.
 
#40
Meant to come back to this one. I get the dude's complaints: the reason Metroid games are a niche, acquired taste is because they're distinct, not in "isolation" or "atmosphere" or what have you, but the feeling of being lost. You can be alone in any game; it's different to be alone and a little bit clueless about what you're supposed to do (and not in a Zelda "I can't figure this puzzle out right now so I'll go do something else"-way).

For me, that's what makes Super borderline magic. I only play it maybe once a year. That's just enough time to forget where things are. Metroid 3 is nearly as mysterious to me now as it is the first time I played it for that reason. But to bring that back to the prior discussion on Metroid 2...there's a border between "old" design being archaic and "old" design being clever. Super is clever, more often than not, IMO.

The Aeion abilities in SR might really be a way forward for the series, in this respect. It could open the door for those who aren't into wandering.

Nah, I feel you on it. It's frickin' Metroid. We waited over a decade for another 2D one. We get it, and it's...really good. But even though it has a few clever additions, because it's a remake, it's not really a step forward for the franchise. It's the game everyone else wanted, but not necessarily the one that people like us wanted.

Yeah, same. Mercury Steam did pretty good under Nintendo's hand, and I'd like to see what they'd do next when it's all new ideas that the development team is throwing up against the wall.
I should replay Super, Zero Mission and Fusion again soon. After FF6 I'm kinda in a FF mood now, got to replay 9 and want to replay 10. Kark also did a good job wanting me to try out 12 and 13 (whoops, there's my unpopular opinion on big franchises seeping out again).
 
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