Star Wars: The Force Awakens / Countdown

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#52
So just got back from seeing it again.

After the movie, I became convinced that Leia knows Rey in some form, but she will not reveal to Rey how so. But then I wondered if maybe their little encounter had nothing to do with them actually knowing each other, but rather that they both are strong in the force. We know that Leia understood that something terrible happened when Han was killed...by their own son, which I think speaks further volumes in some way. There's a reason why the filmmakers put that scene in, and why Leia went straight to her rather then Chewie (you could argue that Leia went to Chewie after the fact, and we never saw it in teh film).

As far as Rey's past goes, we know she was left at a very young age, perhaps 4-6 years old. We are told that she was waiting for her "family" to come back, and she would mark each day that she was left on Jakku on her wall where she lived. It is of course obvious "they" are not coming back. But here was something interesting: Maz told Rey that they were never coming back. How would she know that unless she perhaps knows Rey? Then again, Maz is over 1000 years old, and can read people and their intentions, so it is also possible after Rey touched the lightsaber, and how she wanted to go back, Maz simply knew that it was a fool's errand. Like Maz said, (paraphrasing) better to look into the future than the past (whatever Rey saw after touching the lightsaber is still a mystery), but I believe what Rey saw in that vision is not something that already happened, but rather something that is going to happen. We know Force-users can see into the future, or rather see things before they happen. Maybe there's a link?

Also, speaking of the lightsaber, Han asked Maz where she found that, and she said that is for another time...a time Han will never find out for himself. How did Maz get ahold of the lightsaber? Did Luke give it to Maz, or is there something that happened after Kylo Ren turned to the dark side that caused Maz to acquire the lightsaber?

I still stand by what I said earlier concerning Ren and his jedi abilities. He's clearly a poser, or a Darth Vader wannabe. Short-tempered, unlike Vader who was more controlled in his actions. And he uses the mask not because he has a deformity, but because...it looks cool, and he sympathizes with Vader and wants to be like him. Vader was also his grandfather, so there's an idol as well. But here's another thing I noticed: When Ren has the mask on, he is simply shielding himself from his real emotions and intentions. This is blatant when he's trying to force-mind Rey to get the information. Notice that unlike Poe from earlier, Ren does not have his mask on when he's interrogating Rey. Now, we know during this scene, that Ren cannot get the information because Rey apparently has untapped and undiscovered force abilities herself. But it is also a contrast compared to earlier. The mask is off this time around, and we can now see his real eyes. It could also be a metaphor about we now see who Ren really is during this interrogation.

As far as the climatic fight goes, Ren was already injured by Chewie's blaster, and yet Ren tried to brush that off (notice he would pound his chest a couple times during the fight). He was trying to shrug it off, feeling as though he was more powerful than he really was, because up until Rey, no one had ever dared to defy him. And now, a mere scavenger became Ren's kryptonite. Finn may have tried to fight off Ren, but of course failed. I don't doubt that Finn could in some way weild the lightsaber and be able to use it (like I mentioned in a previous post, he likely had melee training). Now, immediately you suggest that even still, it does not answer why Ren couldn't have simply defeated Finn so easily due to his force abilities, but the answer is clear: Ren's judgment was clouded and he was full of emotion, in the same way how Vader was against Obi-Wan in EP3. Not to mention, Ren's training was never completed (to be pedantic though, training is never completed), he was already injured prior to the fight, and he just killed his own father (his dialogue before he struck Han was clear that in order to fully turn, he must kill Han as he was struggling with the light and dark sides).

As far as Ren's force abilities though (like stopping a blaster shot), he has a lot of tricks and whatnot he can use with the force, but his wielding abilities were never finished (we are led to believe he's this Jedi master simply because he can use the force in clever ways, but he's more of a bully in this movie, and bullies never show their negative side until someone (Rey in this case) can match them either physically, or mentally (the latter in this case). And lastly, we never see him even use his lightsaber in a duel until the very end of the movie. Just because we are good at one thing, doesn't necessarily mean the same for the other.

That's all for now. I have to hit the hay, but those are some of the things I picked up on immediately. There's more of course as always, but I'll just leave it at it.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#53
So, not to do too much shameless self promotion, but I talked to @Menashe about quasi-rebooting Film Enthusiast. I've written two reviews for it.
http://film-enthusiast.com/review/review-spectre/
http://film-enthusiast.com/review/review-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

And I plan to keep up some features there. "Netflix and Chill" will be thumbs up or down for random Netflix movies. Reviews will come (hopefully I can see Hateful 8 next). And there's going to be plenty of discussion on specific movies. If you care to read, that'd be nice. If not, also fine. If you'd like to contribute, please let me know.
So just got back from seeing it again.
Ah, to the spoilers we go!
After the movie, I became convinced that Leia knows Rey in some form, but she will not reveal to Rey how so. But then I wondered if maybe their little encounter had nothing to do with them actually knowing each other, but rather that they both are strong in the force. We know that Leia understood that something terrible happened when Han was killed...by their own son, which I think speaks further volumes in some way. There's a reason why the filmmakers put that scene in, and why Leia went straight to her rather then Chewie (you could argue that Leia went to Chewie after the fact, and we never saw it in teh film).

As far as Rey's past goes, we know she was left at a very young age, perhaps 4-6 years old. We are told that she was waiting for her "family" to come back, and she would mark each day that she was left on Jakku on her wall where she lived. It is of course obvious "they" are not coming back. But here was something interesting: Maz told Rey that they were never coming back. How would she know that unless she perhaps knows Rey? Then again, Maz is over 1000 years old, and can read people and their intentions, so it is also possible after Rey touched the lightsaber, and how she wanted to go back, Maz simply knew that it was a fool's errand. Like Maz said, (paraphrasing) better to look into the future than the past (whatever Rey saw after touching the lightsaber is still a mystery), but I believe what Rey saw in that vision is not something that already happened, but rather something that is going to happen. We know Force-users can see into the future, or rather see things before they happen. Maybe there's a link?
Oh no, I think what she saw when she touched the lightsaber has definitely already occurred. The corridor she finds herself in is Bespin...where that lightsaber was originally lost in ESB (you can hear Luke scream "no!" in the background). The vision of Luke with R2 is probably him sending the droid off with that incomplete map. The field of dead with Kylo Ren standing there is likely the aftermath of the Knights of Ren slaughtering the Jedi-in-training. And young Rey watching the ship leave seems like an obvious flashback.

With Maz...remember she asks Han "who is the girl?" right before that. It's possible Han really knew who Rey was, and told Maz (meaning Leia may also know who Rey is). But I'd say it's more likely that Maz is just using intuition there - a family that leaves you 15 years ago probably isn't coming back.
Also, speaking of the lightsaber, Han asked Maz where she found that, and she said that is for another time...a time Han will never find out for himself. How did Maz get ahold of the lightsaber? Did Luke give it to Maz, or is there something that happened after Kylo Ren turned to the dark side that caused Maz to acquire the lightsaber?
There's either a good story behind it, or the writers couldn't figure one out and said "we'll just figure it out in the next movie." Since it was lost in Bespin, though, perhaps there's a connection to Lando?
I still stand by what I said earlier concerning Ren and his jedi abilities. He's clearly a poser, or a Darth Vader wannabe. Short-tempered, unlike Vader who was more controlled in his actions. And he uses the mask not because he has a deformity, but because...it looks cool, and he sympathizes with Vader and wants to be like him. Vader was also his grandfather, so there's an idol as well. But here's another thing I noticed: When Ren has the mask on, he is simply shielding himself from his real emotions and intentions. This is blatant when he's trying to force-mind Rey to get the information. Notice that unlike Poe from earlier, Ren does not have his mask on when he's interrogating Rey. Now, we know during this scene, that Ren cannot get the information because Rey apparently has untapped and undiscovered force abilities herself. But it is also a contrast compared to earlier. The mask is off this time around, and we can now see his real eyes. It could also be a metaphor about we now see who Ren really is during this interrogation.
I think it's all simpler than that. Ben Solo-Organa thinks that Ben Solo-Organa doesn't have what it takes to be a powerful Force user. He's ashamed of the Light side of his heritage. So he hides it and becomes something else.

The more I think on it, the more I like that he's just a guy under that mask. It would have been an absolute ripoff to have another cyborg. And the same goes for his temperament. He's highly, highly unstable; if they had made him dispassionate, he would have been a Vader ripoff.

OTOH, I think the interrogation scene is crucial. On one hand, him taking off the mask is to show Rey "I'm not afraid to confront you without the mask." But remember, he also tells her "don't be afraid, I feel it, too." Once he studies her, he knows that she is Force-sensitive. And strong. And what do people on the Dark side always do? Try to recruit someone, usually with the intent on killing their own master. It's easier to do that without a mask on.
As far as the climatic fight goes, Ren was already injured by Chewie's blaster, and yet Ren tried to brush that off (notice he would pound his chest a couple times during the fight). He was trying to shrug it off, feeling as though he was more powerful than he really was, because up until Rey, no one had ever dared to defy him. And now, a mere scavenger became Ren's kryptonite. Finn may have tried to fight off Ren, but of course failed. I don't doubt that Finn could in some way weild the lightsaber and be able to use it (like I mentioned in a previous post, he likely had melee training). Now, immediately you suggest that even still, it does not answer why Ren couldn't have simply defeated Finn so easily due to his force abilities, but the answer is clear: Ren's judgment was clouded and he was full of emotion, in the same way how Vader was against Obi-Wan in EP3. Not to mention, Ren's training was never completed (to be pedantic though, training is never completed), he was already injured prior to the fight, and he just killed his own father (his dialogue before he struck Han was clear that in order to fully turn, he must kill Han as he was struggling with the light and dark sides).

As far as Ren's force abilities though (like stopping a blaster shot), he has a lot of tricks and whatnot he can use with the force, but his wielding abilities were never finished (we are led to believe he's this Jedi master simply because he can use the force in clever ways, but he's more of a bully in this movie, and bullies never show their negative side until someone (Rey in this case) can match them either physically, or mentally (the latter in this case). And lastly, we never see him even use his lightsaber in a duel until the very end of the movie. Just because we are good at one thing, doesn't necessarily mean the same for the other.
Now that I've watched it three times, the choreography makes much more sense of those fights. Ren dominates Fin. Fin gets in one little jab, pisses him off, and then Ren disarms him and disables him. When he turns his attention to Rey, she pretty much runs for the first half of the fight...until she closes her eyes (remembering Maz's instructions) and uses the Force to overpower Ren.

But you're right on his Force abilities. He's an unfinished product. He can bully people, but he's not accustomed to push-back.
That's all for now. I have to hit the hay, but those are some of the things I picked up on immediately. There's more of course as always, but I'll just leave it at it.
Oh, there's always more. ;) That's why I'm thinking of doing a Film Enthusiast roundtable on this.

EDIT: Looks like Maz Kunata has been explained. And the lightsaber being found, too. Spoilers, obviously.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/all-the-backstory-you-desperately-want-to-know-about-th-1751196966

Maz Kanata is one of The Force Awakens’ biggest mysteries. We know some of her scenes were cut from the film too, leaving her even more mysterious.

While the film does heavily hint that Maz can use the Force, the Visual Dictionary confirms that she is indeed Force Sensitive—Maz is familiar with the Jedi and had many Jedi acquaintances before the Empire, but “never went down that path,” according to the book. Instead, she quietly used her Force abilities to keep her alive during her hundreds of years of adventures as a pirate.

When Maz retired to Takodana in the wake of Palpatine’s death, she began using her abilities openly—tracking force-strong relics and collecting them as a safeguard... which led to her sensing Luke Skywalker’s lightsaber, lost in the bowels of Bespin after the end of The Empire Strikes Back, and eventually retrieving it for her collection.
 
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Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#56
Yeah I read that article this morning, so some of my points are no longer valid right now. I totally forgot about Bespin and the light saber for example.
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#58
So I guess everyone worried that JJ would fuck up Star Wars feels pretty dumb now....

It was exactly what I expected.... Great....
It's usually the same people who thought Star Trek Into Darkness was crap. Was it a masterpiece? No, but far from a bad movie (I actually enjoyed it very much). The Force Awakens was a nice breath of fresh air for Star Wars, considering we had the prequels to deal with for several years. That being said though, EP3 was actually pretty decent, minus the script writing...

And if I'm being honest, the prequels are also far from the worst movies ever made. I can still watch them and enjoy them for the most part.
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#59
So, not to do too much shameless self promotion, but I talked to @Menashe about quasi-rebooting Film Enthusiast. I've written two reviews for it.
http://film-enthusiast.com/review/review-spectre/
http://film-enthusiast.com/review/review-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

And I plan to keep up some features there. "Netflix and Chill" will be thumbs up or down for random Netflix movies. Reviews will come (hopefully I can see Hateful 8 next). And there's going to be plenty of discussion on specific movies. If you care to read, that'd be nice. If not, also fine. If you'd like to contribute, please let me know.

Ah, to the spoilers we go!
Oh no, I think what she saw when she touched the lightsaber has definitely already occurred. The corridor she finds herself in is Bespin...where that lightsaber was originally lost in ESB (you can hear Luke scream "no!" in the background). The vision of Luke with R2 is probably him sending the droid off with that incomplete map. The field of dead with Kylo Ren standing there is likely the aftermath of the Knights of Ren slaughtering the Jedi-in-training. And young Rey watching the ship leave seems like an obvious flashback.

With Maz...remember she asks Han "who is the girl?" right before that. It's possible Han really knew who Rey was, and told Maz (meaning Leia may also know who Rey is). But I'd say it's more likely that Maz is just using intuition there - a family that leaves you 15 years ago probably isn't coming back.

There's either a good story behind it, or the writers couldn't figure one out and said "we'll just figure it out in the next movie." Since it was lost in Bespin, though, perhaps there's a connection to Lando?

I think it's all simpler than that. Ben Solo-Organa thinks that Ben Solo-Organa doesn't have what it takes to be a powerful Force user. He's ashamed of the Light side of his heritage. So he hides it and becomes something else.

The more I think on it, the more I like that he's just a guy under that mask. It would have been an absolute ripoff to have another cyborg. And the same goes for his temperament. He's highly, highly unstable; if they had made him dispassionate, he would have been a Vader ripoff.

OTOH, I think the interrogation scene is crucial. On one hand, him taking off the mask is to show Rey "I'm not afraid to confront you without the mask." But remember, he also tells her "don't be afraid, I feel it, too." Once he studies her, he knows that she is Force-sensitive. And strong. And what do people on the Dark side always do? Try to recruit someone, usually with the intent on killing their own master. It's easier to do that without a mask on.

Now that I've watched it three times, the choreography makes much more sense of those fights. Ren dominates Fin. Fin gets in one little jab, pisses him off, and then Ren disarms him and disables him. When he turns his attention to Rey, she pretty much runs for the first half of the fight...until she closes her eyes (remembering Maz's instructions) and uses the Force to overpower Ren.

But you're right on his Force abilities. He's an unfinished product. He can bully people, but he's not accustomed to push-back.

Oh, there's always more. ;) That's why I'm thinking of doing a Film Enthusiast roundtable on this.

EDIT: Looks like Maz Kunata has been explained. And the lightsaber being found, too. Spoilers, obviously.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/all-the-backstory-you-desperately-want-to-know-about-th-1751196966

Maz Kanata is one of The Force Awakens’ biggest mysteries. We know some of her scenes were cut from the film too, leaving her even more mysterious.

While the film does heavily hint that Maz can use the Force, the Visual Dictionary confirms that she is indeed Force Sensitive—Maz is familiar with the Jedi and had many Jedi acquaintances before the Empire, but “never went down that path,” according to the book. Instead, she quietly used her Force abilities to keep her alive during her hundreds of years of adventures as a pirate.

When Maz retired to Takodana in the wake of Palpatine’s death, she began using her abilities openly—tracking force-strong relics and collecting them as a safeguard... which led to her sensing Luke Skywalker’s lightsaber, lost in the bowels of Bespin after the end of The Empire Strikes Back, and eventually retrieving it for her collection.
I seriously would want to contribute, Donut. I'm not sure I'd be the best person to review a movie (it would be pretty rudimentary), but essays and other talking points I could do.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#61
@juegosmajicos - A thorough analysis of the music.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...wakens_is_packed_with_hidden_information.html

(We should do an audio enthusiast site.)
So I guess everyone worried that JJ would fuck up Star Wars feels pretty dumb now....

It was exactly what I expected.... Great....
I think people were just worried because it's Star Wars. It's our agreed-upon pop culture mythology. Messing it up would be a big deal, especially after the prequels. But J.J. did alright. He split a good balance between making an homage, making a reboot, and making a new movie. That couldn't have been an easy needle to thread, but he did it.
I seriously would want to contribute, Donut. I'm not sure I'd be the best person to review a movie (it would be pretty rudimentary), but essays and other talking points I could do.
Write some stuff up, dude. I'm going to keep posting stuff until someone tells me I can't. :msrs:
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#63
I have a theory:

With all this talk about Rey, and where she fits in with all this, is it at all possible she is a descendant (or rather granddaughter) of Obi-Wan Kenobi? I have not watched The Clone Wars, so I don't know if Ben ever had a love interest between EP3 and 4, but what if he had a love interest, and she ended up having a kid, who also grew up (during the time of the OT), and he/she ended up meeting someone and they had a kid as well, who turned out to be Rey? Now you might wonder why none of those people ever learned the ways of the force. Well, maybe they were force-sensitive, but never capitalized on it. Not to mention when Rey touched the lightsaber, it called to her. For a period of time, Obi-Wan was in possession of Anakin's blue Lightsaber, and did use it I'm sure.

I think it's possible Rey is actually Rey Kenobi, the granddaughter of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#64
I've wanted to, but I haven't made any motion since I thought the app was coming along soon. We'll figure something out.
I don't think the app would totally replace the sites, though. We sort of have a quasi-Gawker sort of network for many different interests (we really need our own kinja post), and one app wouldn't really work for all of it.
I have a theory:

With all this talk about Rey, and where she fits in with all this, is it at all possible she is a descendant (or rather granddaughter) of Obi-Wan Kenobi? I have not watched The Clone Wars, so I don't know if Ben ever had a love interest between EP3 and 4, but what if he had a love interest, and she ended up having a kid, who also grew up (during the time of the OT), and he/she ended up meeting someone and they had a kid as well, who turned out to be Rey? Now you might wonder why none of those people ever learned the ways of the force. Well, maybe they were force-sensitive, but never capitalized on it. Not to mention when Rey touched the lightsaber, it called to her. For a period of time, Obi-Wan was in possession of Anakin's blue Lightsaber, and did use it I'm sure.

I think it's possible Rey is actually Rey Kenobi, the granddaughter of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
That was something I read on earlier:
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/who-are-reys-parents-5-star-wars-the-force-214359780.html

It makes some sense, because the voice she hears when she touches the lightsaber isn't Luke or Anakin, but Obi-Wan. I don't think it's ever been touched on with Obi-Wan having children, but all of the old EU stuff is no longer canon, so who knows?
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#65
I don't think the app would totally replace the sites, though. We sort of have a quasi-Gawker sort of network for many different interests (we really need our own kinja post), and one app wouldn't really work for all of it.

That was something I read on earlier:
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/who-are-reys-parents-5-star-wars-the-force-214359780.html

It makes some sense, because the voice she hears when she touches the lightsaber isn't Luke or Anakin, but Obi-Wan. I don't think it's ever been touched on with Obi-Wan having children, but all of the old EU stuff is no longer canon, so who knows?
Based on what I just read, I'm going to stick with my theory as I personally think it makes the most sense right now.
 

Superfakerbros

ECE 2018
Moderator
#67
Hmm...I have to ask:

Who was that old man that gave the map about Luke Skywalker's location to Po? Like...what was his importance? What was his name? Why would have his hands on something like that anyways? It's one of the few things that genuinely bugged me about the movie. That and a defected Stormtrooper being able to hold his own in a lightsaber duel with a jedi
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#68
Hmm...I have to ask:

Who was that old man that gave the map about Luke Skywalker's location to Po? Like...what was his importance? What was his name? Why would have his hands on something like that anyways? It's one of the few things that genuinely bugged me about the movie. That and a defected Stormtrooper being able to hold his own in a lightsaber duel with a jedi
I think we'll find out for sure about Max Von Syndow's character in the later movies. I suspect he's of greater importance than we think, despite him getting killed off within the first five minutes.

As far as Finn holding his own, I think that considering he does have Stormtrooper training, and could wield melee weapons (given the guy he fought earlier), he could hold his own. BUT! I also think that Ren was also toying with him, and not actually trying to kill him. It was only after Finn got a couple lucky hits did Ren actually very nearly kill him, before Rey stepped in. That's my thought, anyway.

Honestly though, I think we are only looking so much into those details because we don't know the full story. We still have two other movies coming out, and the storylines for each character will be more fleshed out in the process.
 

Superfakerbros

ECE 2018
Moderator
#69
I think we'll find out for sure about Max Von Syndow's character in the later movies. I suspect he's of greater importance than we think, despite him getting killed off within the first five minutes.

As far as Finn holding his own, I think that considering he does have Stormtrooper training, and could wield melee weapons (given the guy he fought earlier), he could hold his own. BUT! I also think that Ren was also toying with him, and not actually trying to kill him. It was only after Finn got a couple lucky hits did Ren actually very nearly kill him, before Rey stepped in. That's my thought, anyway.

Honestly though, I think we are only looking so much into those details because we don't know the full story. We still have two other movies coming out, and the storylines for each character will be more fleshed out in the process.
I hope so because I don't even think they mentioned his name or gave any insight as to what he did :p

Stormtrooper training would definitely put him above the average fighter for sure but, even then, stormtroopers were almost always fodder for the main cast to take out. I'd have less of an issue with it if we had perhaps seen him do some training after defecting but it definitely could've been because Ben wasn't taking him seriously, considering what Ben is capable of

True, true. I definitely liked Force Awakens. I just hope the latter two movies help fill us in on some of these details and more
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#70
Hmm...I have to ask:

Who was that old man that gave the map about Luke Skywalker's location to Po? Like...what was his importance? What was his name? Why would have his hands on something like that anyways? It's one of the few things that genuinely bugged me about the movie. That and a defected Stormtrooper being able to hold his own in a lightsaber duel with a jedi
I think most of this is pulled from the SW:TFA novelization:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lor_San_Tekka

He was not Force-sensitive, but part of a sort of church of the Force. Like Maz Kuanta, he was also a part-time adventurer/explorer (which probably explains why he ended up with the map, and Maz ended up with the lightsaber).

With Fin, once you re-watch the choreography of the final battle a few times, it's clear Kylo is in control. He's pretty much playing with his food until Fin gets aggressive and tags him (which, of course, leads to Kylo effing him up pretty bad). Same with Rey; the first half of their battle is her running away. I felt the same as you about the final battle the first time I watched it, but I've noticed more subtlety to it the more I've watched it.
 
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