Westworld OT - Man was matter, that was Snowden's secret

[Wolven]

WESTWORLD OFFICIAL THREAD

INTRODUCTION​

Westworld is a brand new HBO show, premiering October 2nd, Sunday night. It is a re imagining of the 1973 science fiction film by Michael Crichton, the creator of Jurassic Park. It is being spearheaded by J.J. Abrams, Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy. It is described as "a dark odyssey about the dawn of artificial consciousness and the future of sin"(Wikipedia)

CAST
Anthony Hopkins as Dr. Ford
Ed Harris as the Gunslinger
Evan Rachel Wood as Dolores Abernathy
James Marsden as Teddy Flood
Thandie Newton as Maeve Millay
Jeffrey Wright as Bernard Lowe
Tessa Thompson as Charlotte Hale
Sidse Babbett Knudsen as Theresa Cullen
Jimmi Simpson as William
Rodrigo Santoro as Hector Escaton
Shannon Woodward as Elsie Hughes
Ingrid Bolso Berdal as Armistice
Ben Barnes as Logan
Simon Quarterman as Lee Sizemore
Angela Sarafyan as Clementine Pennyfeather
Luke Hemsworth as Ashley Stubbs
Clifton Collins Jr. as Lawrence
(Wikipedia)

MEDIA

​

 

[Wolven]

I want this to turn into a sort of discussion. I have a feeling that this show is going to be big, but I am not too sure. Here is hoping for the best. I am super excited for how this goes. They have been hitting all of the right buttons.

 

[Juegos]

I'll watch it.

 

[FriedShoes]

I've been looking forward to this for a while. And now as a person who has become a big fan of the movie, it can only disappoint! But thats ok, I can live with that

 

[sjmartin79]

We'll be watching

 

[FriedShoes]

PROMISING

 

[Wolven]

PROMISING

I just finished watching it. I really do love it so far. I feel like it is very wellmade, I wanna see if they can keep it up for the rest of the season!

 

[theMightyME]

Really smart show, lots of interesting twists... A cool groundhogs day dynamic... Great performances... The scenes from the rest of the season are super promising as well

 

[Wolven]

Really smart show, lots of interesting twists... A cool groundhogs day dynamic... Great performances... The scenes from the rest of the season are super promising as well

I legit thought of Majora's Mask on the second "day" when Dolores woke up again.

 

[theMightyME]

I legit thought of Majora's Mask on the second "day" when Dolores woke up again.

Young one, lol you are supposed to think about groundhogs day, not the shows /movies /games that borrowed from it haha Jonathon Nolan is perfect for the series his work on person of interest makes him like the number 1 guy for long form stories about artifical intelligence

 

[Odo]

I liked it. It made me wanted to know what's going on.

I don't trust JJ though. I have never enjoyed anything he was working on.

 

[sjmartin79]

Definitely liked it, and am interested to see where it goes. I can definitely see a Jurassic Park type of thing happening down the line where the hosts run wild and can actual harm the guests.

 

[FriedShoes]

I love how they used the flies to subtly, or maybe not so subtly, tell the slow turn of these robots (did they give them a name, i forget)
Was chatting today with my brother and its pretty likely that the flies are the catalyst of all the problems these things are facing, as they are real living things that cant be shoo'd away, presenting a possible conundrum in the Host's programming. Except at the end, when one is smushed, a very telling and somewhat chilling act. Real good.

 

[sjmartin79]

Yes! Earlier she was asked if she would harm a living creature, and she said "No, absolutely not." Then at the end, she killed the fly... and there was a look of something in her eyes.

It kinda reminded me of the end of Psycho, when Norman Bates is in the prison cell and he's going on about "That fly just keeps buzzing around. But I won't swat at it. I won't kill it. People will be able to look back and say 'That Norman Bates, why he wouldn't even harm a fly'". I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

 

[FriedShoes]

some very fun theories about two time periods being shown are popping around after yesterday's episode.
Also it looks like HBO Go users are getting episodes earlier? I caught a leak on like Thursday.

 

[FriedShoes]

also the Man in Black is my favorite character, for he represents "us gamers".

 

[theMightyME]

some very fun theories about two time periods being shown are popping around after yesterday's episode.
Also it looks like HBO Go users are getting episodes earlier? I caught a leak on like Thursday.

That was just episode 2...because the presidential debate was on Sunday

 

[theMightyME]

some very fun theories about two time periods being shown are popping around after yesterday's episode.
Also it looks like HBO Go users are getting episodes earlier? I caught a leak on like Thursday.

Is it that the man in black is an older version of the new visitor in episode 2? Because that is my theory

 

[Wolven]

I am so confused. That whole Lawrence thing this episode, plus the preview made me super hype because holy shit. It looks insane. So I was about to completely buy into that William = MiB theory but both Logan and the MiB refer to the event that happened 35 years ago...

 

[theMightyME]

I am so confused. That whole Lawrence thing this episode, plus the preview made me super hype because holy shit. It looks insane. So I was about to completely buy into that William = MiB theory but both Logan and the MiB refer to the event that happened 35 years ago...

I don't remember that happening... I thought Logan was referring to Anthony Hopkins partner, but he seemed to be referring to it like something that happened recently... as in, the dude killed himself, the park nearly fell apart, but our company might end up buying it

I am still unsure on if the theory will pan out.. but at the very least these were intentionally placed bread crumbs

I talked about it on my podcast this week, the show is intentionally fucking with its audience, much like Mr. Robot does....

everytime they seem to give evidence in 1 direction, they follow it up by planting seeds of doubt, so in the end it is all vague and inconclusive

http://tventhusiast.com/article/the-weekly-set-podcast-episode-080/

that is the podcast.. there are also spoilers for legends of tomorrow, agents of shield, and black mirror season 3 episode 1

24:52 for westworld discussion.... we recorded on the 27th, so this is about last week's episode

 

[FriedShoes]

The management/leak intrigue is getting meh, more interested in the park stuff than that.

 

[Odo]

This show is not for me. I had a go but it got boring. JJ Abrams works are not my cup of tea.

 

[FriedShoes]

Staggered time periods theory is happening.
anyone who is not on this train is not cool enough for this ride

 

[sjmartin79]

Is it that the man in black is an older version of the new visitor in episode 2? Because that is my theory

I've been thinking this for awhile too.

Maeve is, by far, the most interesting character to me. Any scene she's in, I'm completely enthralled.
I'm glad more pieces are starting to fall into place. For so many episodes it felt like they kept giving us more questions on top of questions.

 

[FriedShoes]

SAMURAI
WARUODOOOOOOOOO

 

[FriedShoes]

this show is so simple and predictable, I get annoyed when people try to say it isnt. I dont think it tries to hide itself as anything other than that, although some scenes in this episode make me believe they really thought some of the reveals were shocking. Still, made up for the last few episodes, imo. Very enjoyable.

 

[Wolven]

The season remained somewhat consistent for me, with definite low points. However, I felt really satisfied with how it ended. Really looking forward to the eastern themed second season. At least I hope its eastern theme lol.

 

[FriedShoes]

I dont believe we'll get too much into the other Worlds, but I was very happy to see Samurai World. When they first infiltrated the area (was watching alongside my brother), I had guessed Space World but as soon as we saw the warrior garb we both shouted Samurai World in unison, soo good.

That entire breakout sequence was basically a concise homage to the movie Westworld. Almost, would have been much more awesome if the samurais turned bad as well and started slicing fools

 

[Juegos]

I liked this last episode more than the rest of the season combined. The show has had likable characters all along, for the most part, and I've liked all the sci-fi tropes being mashed together here. All the gaming tropes add a good layer to the show, as well, while the production values never let up (I loved that Radioheadworld soundtrack).

But I've hated how half of the show or more has only been theory bait. The characters and plot have grown very slowly, but oh boy have we gone in circles about whether there are multiple timelines, whether some character is another character, whether A killed B or C, whether this or that or the other. The show was written in a way that encourages weekly discussion, and while that may be fun for people that browse reddit while pretending to work, it weakens the story overall.

So I was surprised to be thrilled by this last episode. Even if the episode hadn't been 90 minutes long, I would have been satisfied with its character, plot, and thematic development. Just last week I had told my brother that I was so damn sick of TV shows bloating themselves with circular character developments and excessive teases that lead to underwhelming twists (and I did watch some great Criterion Collection movies to cleanse my palate), but this last episode of Westworld season 1 was damn good and gave me faith in the writers again.

 

[theMightyME]

covering the season finale on the podcast this week... along with the dc cross-over

any questions? about either? or... BOTH

 

[Odo]

They're killing humans.

This is wrong. I don't enjoy those underlings androids killing humans. Humans must unite themselves and defeat them. Our race is superior.

 

[Laer_HeiSeiRyuu]

eh its okay

 

[sjmartin79]

Steve2 and I were a few weeks behind, and we were quite pleased with how the season wrapped up. We were correct on a few theories. Makes me want to go back and rewatch the season again with clearer eyes.

 

[theMightyME]

I loved the way the show started, the first 2 episodes are f'n stunning masterclasses in how to tell a story about AI

the series really went downhill from there, and by the end I have to say that it didn't live up to its promise...

that being said, it was still a great show, just not quite as great as it could have been

it is kind of a double edged sword in that it really brought back the water cooler show in full effect, and I haven't seen these kind of fan theories and internet conversations since LOST (which is, btw my favorite show of all time, and the ending was great too)... the double edge comes into play in that nearly every major twist in the series was picked up on WAY before it was revealed.... since I don't watch TV for surprises alone, It still made for great television, but it would have been cool if it could have thrown us a few more twists we didn't see coming...

However, I also would not have wanted the series to throw an unnecessary twist just to subvert expectations, IMO that is an even greater disservice... in the season finale there was a moment in which it seemed like they might do that... by taking all of the man in black is william stuff and shifting it to logan instead... there was a notable moment in which it seemed like the series was going to do that.... it was exciting because I was like "wha... so it isn't william? its LOGAN?" but as exciting as that moment was the overall payoff would have been cheap, as everything had been building towards William... red herrings are fine, but they work best when the twist suddenly makes more sense than what you initially expected and were lead to believe... while a logan is MIB surprise would have had a bigger initial impact, it would have had a lesser lasting one

the solution to all of this would have been if they had made more obvious clues pointing to logan while more meaningful clues pointed to william, that combined with making us like william, and hate both the man in black and logan would have tricked us into WANTING the MIB to be logan, and leaning in that direction because there are clues for it... with the final twist that it IS william breaks that illusion, and leaves us sad at what william turned into

but hey, this show was super fucking ambitious, and the more ambitious you are the more expectations are there for you to deliver something more and more impossible to do... if westworld had been much less complex in its telling we would be much more at peace with the answers, it is because it got our minds working that we were able to over-analyze the series into a position in which it would be impossible to completely please us...

and just the fact that it did that to us, to me, is a HUGE strength of the series that I both thoroughly enjoyed throughout its telling, and respect when looking back upon it.

 

[Laer_HeiSeiRyuu]

the first episode makes no sense tho lol

 

[theMightyME]

the first episode makes no sense tho lol

how so?

 

[EvilTw1n]

Recently mainlined the series thanks to a friend's HBO Go subscription.

So I was surprised to be thrilled by this last episode. Even if the episode hadn't been 90 minutes long, I would have been satisfied with its character, plot, and thematic development. Just last week I had told my brother that I was so damn sick of TV shows bloating themselves with circular character developments and excessive teases that lead to underwhelming twists (and I did watch some great Criterion Collection movies to cleanse my palate), but this last episode of Westworld season 1 was damn good and gave me faith in the writers again.

I loved the way the show started, the first 2 episodes are f'n stunning masterclasses in how to tell a story about AI

the series really went downhill from there, and by the end I have to say that it didn't live up to its promise...

that being said, it was still a great show, just not quite as great as it could have been

I can grok that perspective. But I'm more with Alex: I think it got better after the first two episodes.

Spoiler

It begins as a fascinating story about AI loops, but it evolved into a deeper, trickier story about consciousness. "When is a machine alive?" is a pretty old sci-fi question, but I think they handled it in an interesting way. It sort of forked. On one hand, there was a very nearly Buddhist aspect - life is suffering, and if you want to be conscious, you have to suffer and understand why you're suffering.

But that makes the denouement for Dolores* a bit harder to grasp. She doesn't get the "ah-ha!" moment of that, really. Bernard gets one piece of the puzzle, she gets the other - free will. The hosts are never truly free, of course, so long as they are under the thumb of man; therefore, the thumb must be cut off. We were always told that she was different, so perhaps Ford is trusting her with this piece of the puzzle. She has to revel in this full freedom, but have the capacity to realize why it's important to utilize it with restraint, lest she become too human (another thing Ford hammered on). It's left up in the air if she has the capacity of restraint.

And then there's Maeve, who very quietly breaks her bonds. To me, that was probably the best twist of the whole season, this build up to Maeve escaping (the techs helping her out, of course, were way too convenient). We all want her to get on the train. But...that's part of her programming, apparently Ford's backup plan. And she rejects it on her own, without the violence Dolores needs to break free.

And it all wraps up in Ford as an architect, or for the purpose of this story, god. I could have done without the skull fucking with the "Creation of Adam" painting, but it served its purpose, I guess. Ford gave the hosts intellect, consciousness. He allows his creation to destroy him as a means to an end.

So yeah, I dug it. I was pissed at myself, because I said on episode 1, "yeah, I think Bernard is a robot." And I gave up on that at the beginning of episode 7 with the flashback to his kid dying. Then they reveal, yup, he's a host in the very same episode. I wasn't big on William sorta breaking heel the way he did - he's fine, he's fine, he's fine, oh he's murdering a bunch of hosts.

But overall? Way more good than bad, IMO.

Spoiler: *

 

[EvilTw1n]

Well, here we are. This weekend. Season 2 primer below. No spoilers, promise.

The bit between 16:00 and 16:20 is the best part, really.

 

[Juegos]

The trailer for season 2 already spoiled so many moments - clearly meant to be surprises - for me. I'm going to stay as far away from anything related to the show as possible except for actually sitting down and watching it.

But yeah, I'm excited.

 

[theMightyME]

The trailer for season 2 already spoiled so many moments - clearly meant to be surprises - for me. I'm going to stay as far away from anything related to the show as possible except for actually sitting down and watching it.

But yeah, I'm excited.

thatw as a video made for Reddit, in which the creators of the show promised to spoil the whole season... but TRUST me, you need to watch it, and no spoilers beyond maybe some scenes from the beginning of the first episode

 

[EvilTw1n]

Whew. That episode.

If you didn't see that story beat coming, I don't know what to tell you. But still, that was a damn fine hour.

Jeffrey Wright is killing it.

 

[FriedShoes]

It was probably the most predictable episode ever, but in a good way.
Season so far has been pretty mixed. I think the first two episodes are entirely skippable considering the latest pair and the one coming up. If next week's disappoints I can't co-sign this show anymore.

 

[theMightyME]

It was probably the most predictable episode ever, but in a good way.
Season so far has been pretty mixed. I think the first two episodes are entirely skippable considering the latest pair and the one coming up. If next week's disappoints I can't co-sign this show anymore.

the trailer for next week's episode is absolute fire... Shogun World!!!!

 

[FriedShoes]

the trailer for next week's episode is absolute fire... Shogun World!!!!

Been waiting two years for it, don't fuck it up HBO

 

[theMightyME]

Been waiting two years for it, don't fuck it up HBO

considering it is Maeve's story, and she is probably my favorite character... and then they cast Hiroyuki Sanada, and have been referencing films by Kurosawa and Sonny Chiba

and then that trailer for the episode... wa sjust so.... sooooo good

 

[FriedShoes]

I have no clue what the fuck is happening in the Delores arc. I try to pay attention but I just don't seem to consciously care.
Because of this, she ruins any episode she's in. They are essentially commercial breaks. Yesterday had a lot of potential but was constantly interrupted and then there's this very goofy telepathic mind control going on now. I don't know about this show anymore lol.

 

[EvilTw1n]

I know this should go without saying, but...SPOILERS to anyone reading? I guess? I mean, the season is on-going, but spoilering text is gonna look dumb from here on out.

Been waiting two years for it, don't fuck it up HBO

...they kinda fucked it up.

This episode had way too much "I know, we should talk to the audience"-moments in it. Some nearly fourth-wall shattering stuff. "Why yes, Maeve; you see, you're a machine, and should therefore be able to access different languages through..."

We get it, we get it. You could have shown us they recycled characters and story arcs without yelling it at us, too. I don't know why they chose to treat the audience this week like we were stupid, but that's what it felt like. The blade-in-hair denouement was so obvious I felt like it was misdirection for something else, but...nope. A shame, because Rinko Kikuchi is a fantastic actress and could have done more with that character and scenario. I still liked this ep, but it just feels like they could've done more with the change of scenery.

I have no clue what the fuck is happening in the Delores arc. I try to pay attention but I just don't seem to consciously care.
Because of this, she ruins any episode she's in.

They're hammering the juxtaposition of Maeve and ̶M̶u̶l̶v̶a̶ Dolores pretty hard as the "awake" hosts. Maeve is transcending into something else with whatever this machine-telepathy thing is, while Dolores is becoming a more conventional tyrant.

Maybe that's why this week felt a little flat. IMO, Westworld is at its best as a plot-driven show. Whenever they slip into character-driven mode, it can drag. I liked finding out MiB's backstory, but that's more plot-centric to the how and why of Westworld existing. But I don't find it as interesting to watch Dolores right now, and I just don't really care what happens to Teddy, innocent cinnamon roll he might be. I thought Dolores was the best part of last season, but they're kinda wasting her. We get it, she's re-gifting the depravity the hosts received back to the guests. That was interesting for one hour, but not five.

 

[FriedShoes]

I'm kinda done with the waxing poetic and "deeper" themes of the show. I felt we kinda got all we needed in the last season. I wanted this season to be just straight up action and survival. Naive on my part. You end last season with people running from killer cowboys and guards being sliced up by robot samurais and then begin this one with a flash forward, a style I absolutely hate. Its why I like MiBs arc this season so much. He's surviving, shooting up dudes, and moving his plot along. Arnold is necessary for some of the why all this shit is happening. Maeve gets a pass only because she's in Shogun World, otherwise I wouldnt care. And after this week, kinda soured on that. I've got no fucks to give to Delores/Teddy.
Thats just me. I understand there's an art to adapting a fun, silly movie like Westworld into a TV drama, but imo it's missing the mark and it just aint fun.

 

[theMightyME]

I'm kinda done with the waxing poetic and "deeper" themes of the show. I felt we kinda got all we needed in the last season. I wanted this season to be just straight up action and survival. Naive on my part. You end last season with people running from killer cowboys and guards being sliced up by robot samurais and then begin this one with a flash forward, a style I absolutely hate. Its why I like MiBs arc this season so much. He's surviving, shooting up dudes, and moving his plot along. Arnold is necessary for some of the why all this shit is happening. Maeve gets a pass only because she's in Shogun World, otherwise I wouldnt care. And after this week, kinda soured on that. I've got no fucks to give to Delores/Teddy.
Thats just me. I understand there's an art to adapting a fun, silly movie like Westworld into a TV drama, but imo it's missing the mark and it just aint fun.

It sounds like you wanted the walking dead with robots but the show was always about the philosophical issues related to artificial intelligence

----

I liked the episode but also had some issues I thought they should have just stuck to shogun world for this episode cutting back and forth didn't do much for me

I also agree that Delores isn't doing much for me this season

I feel like Maeve is giving us the emotional story, Benard is giving us the interesting puzzle to ponder over and MIB is giving us the adventure story

Delores is just being an ass

Another issue u had with the woodside is that it felt like there was a lot of ADR... A bunch of scenes where they felt they needed more explanation so they subbed in audio... But it feels unnatural, and the audio they succeed in was just more philosophical rambling ...so in the end it only hurt it.... It reminds me of the first episode of game of thrones when the did the ADR line about Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei all being siblings... It felt so forced, but atleast in that case it was there to insure the payoff at the end of the episode (incest )

A few things I really dug, the parallel between Westworld and Shogun World .. Which is kind of an inside joke about the way Samurai films were routinely ripped off by westerns (the seven samurai and the magnificent seven) ... I also thought the settings and smoldering emotions were very true to samurai films the Japanese cast was great

But they could have done so much more .. If it was only shogun world this episode they could have done much more to capture, and keep, the tone .. Because some aspects just felt rushed or misplaced, like the ninja attack

As for the "psychic" ability .. I have no issue with it they already explained that the hosts communicate wirelessly with eachother and can be used to ping the locations of other hosts... That is how Bernard and Charlotte tracked down Delores' father

Maeve hacked herself in season 1,and the abilities of functions she unlocked go further than she anticipated she basically tapped into the parks wifi network and hacked the hosts without verbal commands

 

[sjmartin79]

I'm kinda done with the waxing poetic and "deeper" themes of the show. I felt we kinda got all we needed in the last season. I wanted this season to be just straight up action and survival. Naive on my part. You end last season with people running from killer cowboys and guards being sliced up by robot samurais and then begin this one with a flash forward, a style I absolutely hate. Its why I like MiBs arc this season so much. He's surviving, shooting up dudes, and moving his plot along. Arnold is necessary for some of the why all this shit is happening. Maeve gets a pass only because she's in Shogun World, otherwise I wouldnt care. And after this week, kinda soured on that. I've got no fucks to give to Delores/Teddy.
Thats just me. I understand there's an art to adapting a fun, silly movie like Westworld into a TV drama, but imo it's missing the mark and it just aint fun.

Yep, this all day long. I was really hoping for more this season, and I'm really trying to enjoy it, but right now I just kinda like it. That's about all the enthusiasm I can muster for it.