What is Retro Studios REALLY up to?
- Thread starter ZyroXZ2
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I don't think the Retro Studios we have today can make something like Metroid Prime, just yet at least. They've shown their proficiency in the 2D realm though so I'd love to see them create a challenging and beautiful looking 2D Mario game.
I dont want to see them do that now though, I'd like for them to prove me wrong first.
I dont want to see them do that now though, I'd like for them to prove me wrong first.
I could definitely see another 2D Metroid happening, but probably on the 3DS if anything. The Wii U could still have a 2D Metroid, but I think if Retro are working on another Metroid, why not make two at the same time? One for the 3DS and another for the Wii U. Play it off like how Smash Bros is doing things with two different versions on two different platforms.
Although, there's the worry that all you'd get would be a Batman: Arkham Origins/Arkham Origins Blackgate type situation and only one version is good while the other isn't (Don't know how the console versions of Blackgate turned out though).
Although, there's the worry that all you'd get would be a Batman: Arkham Origins/Arkham Origins Blackgate type situation and only one version is good while the other isn't (Don't know how the console versions of Blackgate turned out though).
Haha, I just responded to something like this on a different thread. I actually DON'T want Nintendo dabbling in the FPS genre, here's a copy and paste of my response in that thread:
"I hate to say this, but I wouldn't want Nintendo getting into the FPS genre. The games industry already has so much of that, and from well established "FPS developers" and also from well established franchises. I think Nintendo is smart to have not walked into that territory, because it's territory that's well-trodden and also well-established. They'd be walking in as the "newbie", and we all know how newbies are treated by those kinds of gamers, lol
Essentially, rather than try to "me-too" their way into the over-saturated FPS genre, Nintendo needs to do what Sony/MS have basically done: stay out of the genres they don't do well in. Sony/MS have tried to dabble into the genres that Nintendo excels at (platformers, party games, mini-games), and as we can see, they did NOT succeed in going against Nintendo because Nintendo is so well-established in these areas. Nintendo would NOT succeed going against Sony/MS by dabbling in the FPS genre, because if the two who pour money into their games couldn't steal platforming/kart racing/mini-game thunder from Nintendo, what makes you think Nintendo can even begin to succeed in the FPS market?
Just my thoughts, lol
"
"I hate to say this, but I wouldn't want Nintendo getting into the FPS genre. The games industry already has so much of that, and from well established "FPS developers" and also from well established franchises. I think Nintendo is smart to have not walked into that territory, because it's territory that's well-trodden and also well-established. They'd be walking in as the "newbie", and we all know how newbies are treated by those kinds of gamers, lol
Essentially, rather than try to "me-too" their way into the over-saturated FPS genre, Nintendo needs to do what Sony/MS have basically done: stay out of the genres they don't do well in. Sony/MS have tried to dabble into the genres that Nintendo excels at (platformers, party games, mini-games), and as we can see, they did NOT succeed in going against Nintendo because Nintendo is so well-established in these areas. Nintendo would NOT succeed going against Sony/MS by dabbling in the FPS genre, because if the two who pour money into their games couldn't steal platforming/kart racing/mini-game thunder from Nintendo, what makes you think Nintendo can even begin to succeed in the FPS market?
Just my thoughts, lol
"
And I don't want a "me too FPS". What I want is something similar to Goldeneye. Open levels, rather than the dull corridors of Call of Duty. A game with a focus on a worthwhile singleplayer campaign.
If Nintendo want to compete and make the Wii U at least SOMEWHAT successful, espescially with the poor support from third parties, they need to make sure that the console gets a wide variety of games. A fourth sidescrolling platformer will do nothing. As neither does the second (Tropical Freeze), nor will the third (Yarn Yoshi).
I was about to make a new thread about what Retro is up to. Did a forum search, found this. Last post, 2014. The calendar is about to turn to 2018, and we still don't know.
So, 2018 edition, what the hell is Retro up to?
Having an idea of the size of the company might help, I guess. LinkedIn for the company says "51-200," which is a little too vague. I watched DK:TF's staff roll, and minus contractors, there was about 75 staff for it. That's about the same number - minus contractors - who worked on Metroid Prime 3. I'd bet Retro's team size does balloon up into the 100+ range once they've hired art contractors and business administrative employees, but the core studio size seems to hover at that 75 mark.
Why focus on size, you ask? Because size matters for modern development if you want to release games in regular intervals. Monolith has about 133-143 employees, apparently (Wiki gives the larger number, but their link and the picture there suggests the smaller one), and that gets you XCX, designing Hyrule for BotW, and Xenoblade 2. Platinum has 198, and in the time since Tropical Freeze dropped, they've released Bayonetta 2 and NieR: Automata, worked on Star Fox Zero and Project Guard, started work on the since-canceled Scalebound, and completed licensed games for Transformers, TMNT, and Legend of Korra. Bethesda has 180. Capcom shuffled around about 200 employees to work on Monster Hunter 4. Respawn lists 200. Atlus hovers at 200, apparently. Nintendo EPD is, of course, gigantic - 800 employees in 11 internal teams. Bungie is in the neighborhood of 750.
Which is all to say that maybe the reason we haven't heard from Retro is that it's being modernized to be a bigger studio that can develop multiple projects. One hopes. That would be the optimistic take heading into 2018.
The alternative is that Nintendo may not really know what to do with them.
So, 2018 edition, what the hell is Retro up to?
Having an idea of the size of the company might help, I guess. LinkedIn for the company says "51-200," which is a little too vague. I watched DK:TF's staff roll, and minus contractors, there was about 75 staff for it. That's about the same number - minus contractors - who worked on Metroid Prime 3. I'd bet Retro's team size does balloon up into the 100+ range once they've hired art contractors and business administrative employees, but the core studio size seems to hover at that 75 mark.
Why focus on size, you ask? Because size matters for modern development if you want to release games in regular intervals. Monolith has about 133-143 employees, apparently (Wiki gives the larger number, but their link and the picture there suggests the smaller one), and that gets you XCX, designing Hyrule for BotW, and Xenoblade 2. Platinum has 198, and in the time since Tropical Freeze dropped, they've released Bayonetta 2 and NieR: Automata, worked on Star Fox Zero and Project Guard, started work on the since-canceled Scalebound, and completed licensed games for Transformers, TMNT, and Legend of Korra. Bethesda has 180. Capcom shuffled around about 200 employees to work on Monster Hunter 4. Respawn lists 200. Atlus hovers at 200, apparently. Nintendo EPD is, of course, gigantic - 800 employees in 11 internal teams. Bungie is in the neighborhood of 750.
Which is all to say that maybe the reason we haven't heard from Retro is that it's being modernized to be a bigger studio that can develop multiple projects. One hopes. That would be the optimistic take heading into 2018.
The alternative is that Nintendo may not really know what to do with them.
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...I'd settle for NieR: Automata, really.
Posting again in Retro thread.
Well...
Platinum games seem to have some sort of nether-world IP contract statuses. We wondered for years if Mikami and Tango owned a part of Vanquish, which was why it wasn't ported to other consoles...and then years later it's on PC. So I wouldn't rule Scalebound appearing later, under a different name, maybe (MS did renew the trademark on the name earlier this year).
I always saw Scalebound as the worst-named IP in recent memory.
I only knew of NieR: Automata as an action RPG made by Platinum, which sounded awesome. If you're telling me it has a sexbot, too? It sounds awesome-er (with the added bonus of not being vaporware).
...so yeah, Retro Studios. Um.
Well...
When asked if the Scalebound IP is owned by Microsoft or by developer Platinum, a Microsoft spokesperson simply said "we do not comment on the details of our business agreements with partners," and provided no additional comment when asked if Microsoft will seek to work with Platinum on a separate project in the future.
http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/01/09/microsoft-confirms-scalebound-is-cancelled
http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/01/09/microsoft-confirms-scalebound-is-cancelled
Platinum games seem to have some sort of nether-world IP contract statuses. We wondered for years if Mikami and Tango owned a part of Vanquish, which was why it wasn't ported to other consoles...and then years later it's on PC. So I wouldn't rule Scalebound appearing later, under a different name, maybe (MS did renew the trademark on the name earlier this year).
I always saw Scalebound as the worst-named IP in recent memory.
I only knew of NieR: Automata as an action RPG made by Platinum, which sounded awesome. If you're telling me it has a sexbot, too? It sounds awesome-er (with the added bonus of not being vaporware).
...so yeah, Retro Studios. Um.
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So I just came across this. Which leads you here.
@Juegos @mattavelle1
So yeah. The guy who was there for all of the Primes was thinking the same thing that we were.
http://nintendoenthusiast.com/blog/2017/09/26/metroid-prime-wild/
This is a roundabout way of getting to anyone who thinks losing talent doesn't matter, and that Retro could just replace anybody and that designers and interchangeable. They're not. Retro lost some big, big hitters. They lost the best of their best. I don't think it's a coincidence that we haven't heard anything from them - they simply haven't recovered yet.
@Juegos @mattavelle1
"I think there is an opportunity to create a more living 'world" for Samus to explore. By maturing the visual guideposts within the world to match and enhance the 'lock and key' systemic exploration that is at the heart of the Metroid Prime series of games, there would be an opportunity to enhance those elements that make the Metroid games unique - the isolation, the wonder, and the fear. When I lok at what the new Zelda game is doing on the Switch, it really seems clear to me that there is an opportunity to push the elements that are keystones in the franchise toward their logical gameplay constraints.
Imagine cyclopean bosses pursing you under the skin of a verdant moon across kilometers of terrain, scattering buildings and native life in its wake until you finally lure it into a battlefield of your choosing - a ringed gas giant dominating the sky overhead.
Imagine an alien ship whose wreckage is scattered across hundreds of miles of terrain, your goal as the player being to pull the data cores from each section and reassemble the Gravitic Compression Cannon to face the final boss.
Imagine collecting the Wing Suit, allowing you to fly to near orbit and rendezvous with the orbital defense satellite - retargeting it on the surface below to breach the shields of a space pirate stronghold.
Not just creating isolated pockets suggesting a world, but creating a world and playing within it - and perhaps even bringing a friend."
-Mike Wikan, Retro Studios Senior Game Designer, 2000-2011
Imagine cyclopean bosses pursing you under the skin of a verdant moon across kilometers of terrain, scattering buildings and native life in its wake until you finally lure it into a battlefield of your choosing - a ringed gas giant dominating the sky overhead.
Imagine an alien ship whose wreckage is scattered across hundreds of miles of terrain, your goal as the player being to pull the data cores from each section and reassemble the Gravitic Compression Cannon to face the final boss.
Imagine collecting the Wing Suit, allowing you to fly to near orbit and rendezvous with the orbital defense satellite - retargeting it on the surface below to breach the shields of a space pirate stronghold.
Not just creating isolated pockets suggesting a world, but creating a world and playing within it - and perhaps even bringing a friend."
-Mike Wikan, Retro Studios Senior Game Designer, 2000-2011
So yeah. The guy who was there for all of the Primes was thinking the same thing that we were.
http://nintendoenthusiast.com/blog/2017/09/26/metroid-prime-wild/
This is a roundabout way of getting to anyone who thinks losing talent doesn't matter, and that Retro could just replace anybody and that designers and interchangeable. They're not. Retro lost some big, big hitters. They lost the best of their best. I don't think it's a coincidence that we haven't heard anything from them - they simply haven't recovered yet.
Another of the designers, Kynan Pearson, also said something similar in the same interview:
"I'd also love to see a completely new, fully 3D, third person re-imaginging of the Metroid franchise utilising the philosophies used to create The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. It would be wonderful to have a fully realised planet featuring a vast surface and a deep subterranean world to explore. I'd love to play off on a concept of freely exploring a dangerous world that's filled with surprises and unique abilities, which players could tackle without guidance. To see them really play up elements of trying to survive in a world filled with undiscovered dangers, difficult enemies, bosses, and truly alien terrain. Metroid was always about gaining strange powers in a fully connected and dangerous world, so I hope they create a game that captures the heart of that concept. This type of game could present architecture and bosses at a grand scale that surpasses what players had experienced in the Metroid universe to date. I'd love to see Ridley realised as a massive space dragon that could engage players dynamically in different locations of the world. While it would feel open world, there would have to be a deeply crafted sense of discovering new parts of the world using the abilities the Chozo left behind."
I wish you and I had seen this interview while we were working on our article. But I'm still really happy with the way the article turned out. Not only was it a challenge for me to step up my writing to your level, but it's still one of our best performing articles this whole year. Nothing else I've worked on has come even close.
"I'd also love to see a completely new, fully 3D, third person re-imaginging of the Metroid franchise utilising the philosophies used to create The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. It would be wonderful to have a fully realised planet featuring a vast surface and a deep subterranean world to explore. I'd love to play off on a concept of freely exploring a dangerous world that's filled with surprises and unique abilities, which players could tackle without guidance. To see them really play up elements of trying to survive in a world filled with undiscovered dangers, difficult enemies, bosses, and truly alien terrain. Metroid was always about gaining strange powers in a fully connected and dangerous world, so I hope they create a game that captures the heart of that concept. This type of game could present architecture and bosses at a grand scale that surpasses what players had experienced in the Metroid universe to date. I'd love to see Ridley realised as a massive space dragon that could engage players dynamically in different locations of the world. While it would feel open world, there would have to be a deeply crafted sense of discovering new parts of the world using the abilities the Chozo left behind."
I wish you and I had seen this interview while we were working on our article. But I'm still really happy with the way the article turned out. Not only was it a challenge for me to step up my writing to your level, but it's still one of our best performing articles this whole year. Nothing else I've worked on has come even close.
(Step up? Dude your writing level is as high as anyone's. You've been killing it.)
I'm surprised these interviews were so well hidden. Usually you hear from someone who was Retro's grand fromage and the chief designer of the Prime series, and it's bigger news. I guess it's not as big a deal when the guy is out of the gaming industry. There was also a little info last year from Mark Pacini, who was the director for every Prime game.
Pacini's comments, in particular, kinda makes me wonder if the idea behind Retro was wrong from the start. They were supposed to make the games that Nintendo couldn't, and do it with employees here in the west. What makes Nintendo special, though, is that it has a Japanese business tradition. Koizumi joined Nintendo in 1991. It took him 25 years to really, truly get his shot at being the top employee. He did the Japanese salaryman thing like his culture insisted upon, and it has delivered for him.
But Mark Pacini and Mike Wikan were not going to wait 25 years to make the games they wanted to make for a company that was literally never going to let them be anything more than "the westerners" in a very eastern company. That business culture just doesn't exist here (at least anymore), where you work for the same company your whole life and hone your craft there to be a part of something bigger. Taking on something new and moving careers is expected in the west.
So that's Nintendo's question now. How the hell do you meld east and west, when their career tracks are really incompatible? What is it that Retro can be? When you wipe away that they aren't on the bleeding technological front anymore (NOJ spent the Wii U years learning how to be HD game development wizards), and that they don't have the task of making games Nintendo can't (that's what partnerships with Platinum are for)...why does Retro exist? Does Nintendo even need Retro anymore?
...shit, guess this is an article now.
I'm surprised these interviews were so well hidden. Usually you hear from someone who was Retro's grand fromage and the chief designer of the Prime series, and it's bigger news. I guess it's not as big a deal when the guy is out of the gaming industry. There was also a little info last year from Mark Pacini, who was the director for every Prime game.
Pacini's comments, in particular, kinda makes me wonder if the idea behind Retro was wrong from the start. They were supposed to make the games that Nintendo couldn't, and do it with employees here in the west. What makes Nintendo special, though, is that it has a Japanese business tradition. Koizumi joined Nintendo in 1991. It took him 25 years to really, truly get his shot at being the top employee. He did the Japanese salaryman thing like his culture insisted upon, and it has delivered for him.
But Mark Pacini and Mike Wikan were not going to wait 25 years to make the games they wanted to make for a company that was literally never going to let them be anything more than "the westerners" in a very eastern company. That business culture just doesn't exist here (at least anymore), where you work for the same company your whole life and hone your craft there to be a part of something bigger. Taking on something new and moving careers is expected in the west.
So that's Nintendo's question now. How the hell do you meld east and west, when their career tracks are really incompatible? What is it that Retro can be? When you wipe away that they aren't on the bleeding technological front anymore (NOJ spent the Wii U years learning how to be HD game development wizards), and that they don't have the task of making games Nintendo can't (that's what partnerships with Platinum are for)...why does Retro exist? Does Nintendo even need Retro anymore?
...shit, guess this is an article now.
Ok I’ll say it based on your question. While DK:TF was awesome and an excellent game............anyone worth there salt could make those games. The Prime games are far far removed from the Retro of today.
Based on that I say Nintendo sells retro for a nice price and move on. They don’t need Retro.
*Flame_Suit_Aquired*
Based on that I say Nintendo sells retro for a nice price and move on. They don’t need Retro.
*Flame_Suit_Aquired*
That’s just the thing tho, I don’t personally know or lead to believe there working on anything. Just judging from the past let’s just say 8 years I don’t know why Nintendo is still holding onto them.
There is no doubt I agree with you on the wait and see, but I feel like we have been doin the wait and see dance with retro since MP3. I just don’t see there value personally and they give me no reason to believe there still just terribly amazing. And with Switch firing on all cylinders aswell as having plenty of 1st and 3rd party games, we don’t need the “retro game†to help prop up the library.
All this said I hope (if there even working on something) that it’s the next huge thing and it does amazingly well. As I post this right now tho they haven’t given me a reason to believe this is the truth tho.
There is no doubt I agree with you on the wait and see, but I feel like we have been doin the wait and see dance with retro since MP3. I just don’t see there value personally and they give me no reason to believe there still just terribly amazing. And with Switch firing on all cylinders aswell as having plenty of 1st and 3rd party games, we don’t need the “retro game†to help prop up the library.
All this said I hope (if there even working on something) that it’s the next huge thing and it does amazingly well. As I post this right now tho they haven’t given me a reason to believe this is the truth tho.
Just came across this. Approximately 40 people from the Prime games still work at Retro.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Metroid/comments/6a8w0o/retro_studios_still_has_plenty_of_staff_from_the/
...which leads me back to my initial point. Size matters. 40 people, with help from about 30 newcomers, isn't enough to make a big production in 2017. You would need to triple their size to be a modern studio capable of putting out multiple productions. I hope that's what Nintendo has been up to.
I don't think they'll sell them...but as much as I wanna say you're wrong, I don't think you are.
If Nintendo feels that their system is missing out on first-person shooters? They call Bethesda.
Missing out on "mature" action games? They call Platinum.
Missing out on certain types of RPGs? They call Atlus or Square Enix.
Missing out on turn-based tactical games? They call Ubi.
Missing out on musou games? They call Tecmo.
I want for there to be a reason that Nintendo needs Retro. But I don't really see it. They're a luxury right now. That's fortunate, because Nintendo can afford luxuries at this point.
Well, yeah. I want Retro to blow us away with an original IP or something. I want to see what they're working on. But every year we keep saying that this will finally be the year. If we were talking about a game, we'd consider it vaporware by now. I guess that a game studio that doesn't actually make games is a vaporstudio.
The only thing we can decide on Retro is that they have to release something soon to be relevant at all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Metroid/comments/6a8w0o/retro_studios_still_has_plenty_of_staff_from_the/
...which leads me back to my initial point. Size matters. 40 people, with help from about 30 newcomers, isn't enough to make a big production in 2017. You would need to triple their size to be a modern studio capable of putting out multiple productions. I hope that's what Nintendo has been up to.
I don't think they'll sell them...but as much as I wanna say you're wrong, I don't think you are.
If Nintendo feels that their system is missing out on first-person shooters? They call Bethesda.
Missing out on "mature" action games? They call Platinum.
Missing out on certain types of RPGs? They call Atlus or Square Enix.
Missing out on turn-based tactical games? They call Ubi.
Missing out on musou games? They call Tecmo.
I want for there to be a reason that Nintendo needs Retro. But I don't really see it. They're a luxury right now. That's fortunate, because Nintendo can afford luxuries at this point.
Well, yeah. I want Retro to blow us away with an original IP or something. I want to see what they're working on. But every year we keep saying that this will finally be the year. If we were talking about a game, we'd consider it vaporware by now. I guess that a game studio that doesn't actually make games is a vaporstudio.
The only thing we can decide on Retro is that they have to release something soon to be relevant at all.
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Completely disagree with you guys on retro, you ask "what have you done for me lately" they answer "what nintendo told us to" The Last and you respond "then what good are you?"
The problem is in the assignments nintendo gives them.
Give them an assignment anyone can do and it is hard to complain that anyone can do it
Instead nintendo should say "come to us with 5 pitches that will blow us away, and if we like them we will have you do one of them"
The onus for retro doing something interesting is in nintendo's shoulders... Until nintendo gives them the chance to do something, they can't complain that they aren't doing anything
The problem is in the assignments nintendo gives them.
Give them an assignment anyone can do and it is hard to complain that anyone can do it
Instead nintendo should say "come to us with 5 pitches that will blow us away, and if we like them we will have you do one of them"
The onus for retro doing something interesting is in nintendo's shoulders... Until nintendo gives them the chance to do something, they can't complain that they aren't doing anything
Just playing Donkey Kong Country Diddy's Kong Quest, which got me thinking about Retro. Just realized also, Sucker Punch's '(Sly Cooper, Infamous) last game released a month after DKC Tropical Freeze in 2014. Since then, they released a DLC story campaign (pretty short but fun). We only heard what they're working on back during Sony's thing during Paris Games Week.
Wikipedia has them around 110 people. There's a few parallels between the two. Metroid and Sly was a trilogy before they moved on to another series. Retro released two games on the Wii and one on Wii U, Sucker Punch made two games on the PS3 and so far one on PS4. I'm not saying their brother and sister studio or anything, but I think it's possible we can hear what Retro has been up too soon, January Direct?
It's also worth remembering that not every developer is owned by EA or Activision. DICE releases Battlefield/Battlefront games pretty regularly, Treyarch/Infinity Ward use to release a new Call of Duty like clockwork every two years (now three).
Considering how Retro and Sucker Punch are some of my favorite developers, I'm fine with them taking their time and making something special.
Wikipedia has them around 110 people. There's a few parallels between the two. Metroid and Sly was a trilogy before they moved on to another series. Retro released two games on the Wii and one on Wii U, Sucker Punch made two games on the PS3 and so far one on PS4. I'm not saying their brother and sister studio or anything, but I think it's possible we can hear what Retro has been up too soon, January Direct?
It's also worth remembering that not every developer is owned by EA or Activision. DICE releases Battlefield/Battlefront games pretty regularly, Treyarch/Infinity Ward use to release a new Call of Duty like clockwork every two years (now three).
Considering how Retro and Sucker Punch are some of my favorite developers, I'm fine with them taking their time and making something special.
I do not believe in addition by subtraction, so I certainly want to see Retro remain/return to an active developer for Nintendo. Even if their identity has changed, and they are now more DKC than Metroid Prime, they should still make more games. Even though games like DKC cant make the same impact that a new Metroid Prime can, they are still very good games. Both DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze were critically acclaimed. Nintendo needs a steady flow of games to keep the momentum going with Switch. I would have to think Retro has a game or games in development, perhaps one of which is ready to release but for strategic reasons has been held back for a proper release window. It isn't like Nintendo had no control when the Prime games were being developed, they can manage a games development from across the pond, so giving Retro and project and let them get to work. There are plenty of games that wouldn't require a huge team in the modern era of software development. Wave Race, 1080, F-Zero or gasp.....another DKC game would be possible with a 50-60 man team. So much work can be outsourced these days. Nintnedo has a ton of employees, so if Retro needs some assistance for asset create, there is no reason members at EAD cant assist. Its not like the old days where working under the same roof was a necessity.
In defense to Retro, who says they haven't done anything since Tropical Freeze? For all we know, they've been busy helping other Nintendo studios in some games, much like how Monolith Soft has helped assist. Retro have in the past helped with Mario Kart 7, and DKC Returns on the 3DS, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.
But I will say that it has only been three years since Tropical Freeze, which even in Nintendo terms is about normal. I think it's entirely plausible we'll not only hear about Retro's game very soon, but that it'll come out next year.
But I will say that it has only been three years since Tropical Freeze, which even in Nintendo terms is about normal. I think it's entirely plausible we'll not only hear about Retro's game very soon, but that it'll come out next year.
It only makes sense that they have been busy at work doing something. You don't keep a facility the size of Retro going along with 50+ employees if they were a dead stick. If nothing else, they could be a work horse for Nintendo. I would be interested to know if there has been multiple games released with the assistance of members from Retro. We will have a clear picture of what Retro really is next year. We will surely have a title released or at least shown off, and it should be a good indication on how Nintendo plans to utilize the studio. I am past the days of bitching about DKC TF because I really wanted them to be working on the next Prime. I understand that much of the talent that created Prime is long gone, but after two really good DKC games I feel like they should still contribute quality titles. Hell, over the years they acquired some talent from studious such as Vigil when they closed up. Its not like they have no talent. Nintendo basically killed NST after giving them Wave Race and 1080, and I do not want to see that happen again with Retro.
I understand that Nintendo is a very Japanese company, and will be super protective of certain IP's, but there are plenty of IP's sitting dormant. You cant tell me that Retro isn't capable of taking a game like Star Fox, stick to the mold of the original quality titles, and simply make it look and play great. After the abomination that was Star Fox Zero, Nintendo would be better served by creating Star Fox 3, go back to the tried and true mechanics, and make it look as pretty as possible. Million seller just like that. When Miyamoto says he doesn't know what to do with a franchise, fine, give those to Retro or even NST for goodness sake, and make sure they stick to the mold. Not every game needs to be reinvented, some games just need new levels that play and look great.
Do not let this year cloud your judgement, Switch is off to a fast start, but could slow down quickly if quality titles aren't released frequently. Nintendo released its biggest hitters all in the same year, Mario, Zelda and Mario Kart (ok, Smash is still out there), so they came out swinging with haymakers, but for long term success they need first party release on a near monthly schedule. Not every game is going to be a multi million seller, but to keep the momentum going Nintendo needs to keep gamers engaged in interacting with their Switch. Nintendo needs developers like Retro pumping out 2 to 3 games this generation, or the platform will lose interest.
I understand that Nintendo is a very Japanese company, and will be super protective of certain IP's, but there are plenty of IP's sitting dormant. You cant tell me that Retro isn't capable of taking a game like Star Fox, stick to the mold of the original quality titles, and simply make it look and play great. After the abomination that was Star Fox Zero, Nintendo would be better served by creating Star Fox 3, go back to the tried and true mechanics, and make it look as pretty as possible. Million seller just like that. When Miyamoto says he doesn't know what to do with a franchise, fine, give those to Retro or even NST for goodness sake, and make sure they stick to the mold. Not every game needs to be reinvented, some games just need new levels that play and look great.
Do not let this year cloud your judgement, Switch is off to a fast start, but could slow down quickly if quality titles aren't released frequently. Nintendo released its biggest hitters all in the same year, Mario, Zelda and Mario Kart (ok, Smash is still out there), so they came out swinging with haymakers, but for long term success they need first party release on a near monthly schedule. Not every game is going to be a multi million seller, but to keep the momentum going Nintendo needs to keep gamers engaged in interacting with their Switch. Nintendo needs developers like Retro pumping out 2 to 3 games this generation, or the platform will lose interest.
If Nintendo is looking at Retro and saying "you are only fit to make 2D platformers and Mario Kart levels," it begs the question of why they think that.
If the next sentence is Nintendo saying "we think you could make our own version of Skyrim or Destiny, but we don't want you to," then Nintendo is indeed the problem.
But if the next sentence is "we don't think you can make something more difficult right now," then the problem is likely Retro. Because I don't think NOJ is stupid and a terrible a judge of talent.
If there's a third option, it's Nintendo saying "go find yourselves, throw things against a wall, and we'll wait until something sticks." I'd really, really, really like for that to be what's going on down in Austin*. It isn't unheard of in recent years - Sony gave Japan Studio a very long leash to figure out The Last Guardian; Square Enix did the same for BusDiv2 with FF XV.
But it is absolutely fair to look at anyone and ask "are you still making games I like?" For me, "lately" now goes back over 10 years. What gives me pause is that Nintendo has shown the past few years that the idea of a "Western Nintendo" might not be necessary. Really, they've gotten a ton of mileage out of rejecting that very idea. They looked at the industry and said "eff it, we're doing shooters and fighters and open-world games our own way." For the types of games they don't make, they find partners. So the million dollar question is where that leaves Retro.
[*Worth mentioning that Retro got Monster Games to do level design, art, and engineering on Tropical Freeze. Collaboration on modern games is the new normal, but...DK:TF was not some hugely ambitious piece of unprecedented software. This goes back to what Retro brings to the table overall. They used to be the bleeding edge. Now they don't make DK without help.]
If the next sentence is Nintendo saying "we think you could make our own version of Skyrim or Destiny, but we don't want you to," then Nintendo is indeed the problem.
But if the next sentence is "we don't think you can make something more difficult right now," then the problem is likely Retro. Because I don't think NOJ is stupid and a terrible a judge of talent.
If there's a third option, it's Nintendo saying "go find yourselves, throw things against a wall, and we'll wait until something sticks." I'd really, really, really like for that to be what's going on down in Austin*. It isn't unheard of in recent years - Sony gave Japan Studio a very long leash to figure out The Last Guardian; Square Enix did the same for BusDiv2 with FF XV.
But it is absolutely fair to look at anyone and ask "are you still making games I like?" For me, "lately" now goes back over 10 years. What gives me pause is that Nintendo has shown the past few years that the idea of a "Western Nintendo" might not be necessary. Really, they've gotten a ton of mileage out of rejecting that very idea. They looked at the industry and said "eff it, we're doing shooters and fighters and open-world games our own way." For the types of games they don't make, they find partners. So the million dollar question is where that leaves Retro.
[*Worth mentioning that Retro got Monster Games to do level design, art, and engineering on Tropical Freeze. Collaboration on modern games is the new normal, but...DK:TF was not some hugely ambitious piece of unprecedented software. This goes back to what Retro brings to the table overall. They used to be the bleeding edge. Now they don't make DK without help.]
and nintendo used retro to make stage sin mario kart 7... not 8, 7... none of that matters, they might have just needed the help for crunch time in order to get it out in time... this shit happens
botw had a HUGE amount of help from avrious nintendo developers outside of the zelda team, but more interesting is Skyward Sword, which also had a huge amount of help, and the game came out feeling a bit rushed and incomplete, yet polished... at the time many of us postulated that the zelda team wasn't sure what to do with the game, and interviews had eiji stating that they put in and took out motion controls on multiple occasions.. at the end it seems thta nintendo kind of FORCED the game out, and was bale to keep it polished by bringing in a lot of assistance from outside developers.
as for the second sentence, my guess is
"DKC costs less money and has more sales than Metroid"
Also, Retro WAS at a time of flux then, having lost much of their major creative talent... it can take time to right yourself from that
and dkc is a safe bet... the 2 dkc games were VERY well made... lets not skip that point, nor that it did some things that are very ambitious for just a 2d platformer... they didn't JUST focus on clever level design they had detailed background elements interacting with the foreground gameplay
you don't normally see that level of detail and ambition in a side scrolling platformer because at that point it just makes mroe sense to make a full 3d game with detailed set pieces (which is essentially what the dkcr games had, just in 2d gameplay...
rayman legends did a lot of that kind of stuff, only more 2d in its presentation... the same team now doing beyond good and evil 2 might I add...
dkc won out for nintendo ebcause it is safer... thta is the era too, when nintendo was walking on eggshells.. tons of 2d games... multiple new super mario games in 1 year for example.. and a slew of kirby and yoshi titles... msot of which were not particularly impressive or interesting...
just watching some videos of dkcr and dkcrtf makes it painfully obvious that retro still has talent... and that the talent was being wasted
you also have to remember that when we talk about retro post cretaives leaving, we also need to examine, WHY the creatives left, and most signs point towards nintendo stifling them creatively...
I just don't think it is fair to assume retro is the problem when the actual evidence put before us seems to paint it in the opposite direction...
also, while retro bled some key creative talent during the first dkcr game, they also added some significant talent from places like naughty dog, valve, and lucas arts, and several pretty damn talented artists too, I remember being excited about what they would do at retro after going through the art attributed to them online...
when nintendow as misusing retro they were misusing everyone... thankfully that era seems to be over... as fun as mario 3d world was, it wans't the ambitious game fans wanted, and that fans knew ead tokyo could make... that was mario oddysey... same team btw.... same goes for zelda... look at how limited skyword sword is, and just how fucking vast and complex and somehow serenely polished breath of the wild is
look at the steps between mario kart wii and mario kart 7 and mario kart 8... the wii version was just dull, 7 was unsurprising... 8 looked next gen at its release had characters interactign with eachother like never before, breathing life into every moment...
nintendo had before been trying to simplify, and they have sicne given up that tact... the dkcr games are just from that era, which is now over
HOPEFULLY that means something far more ambitious from retro
botw had a HUGE amount of help from avrious nintendo developers outside of the zelda team, but more interesting is Skyward Sword, which also had a huge amount of help, and the game came out feeling a bit rushed and incomplete, yet polished... at the time many of us postulated that the zelda team wasn't sure what to do with the game, and interviews had eiji stating that they put in and took out motion controls on multiple occasions.. at the end it seems thta nintendo kind of FORCED the game out, and was bale to keep it polished by bringing in a lot of assistance from outside developers.
as for the second sentence, my guess is
"DKC costs less money and has more sales than Metroid"
Also, Retro WAS at a time of flux then, having lost much of their major creative talent... it can take time to right yourself from that
and dkc is a safe bet... the 2 dkc games were VERY well made... lets not skip that point, nor that it did some things that are very ambitious for just a 2d platformer... they didn't JUST focus on clever level design they had detailed background elements interacting with the foreground gameplay
you don't normally see that level of detail and ambition in a side scrolling platformer because at that point it just makes mroe sense to make a full 3d game with detailed set pieces (which is essentially what the dkcr games had, just in 2d gameplay...
rayman legends did a lot of that kind of stuff, only more 2d in its presentation... the same team now doing beyond good and evil 2 might I add...
dkc won out for nintendo ebcause it is safer... thta is the era too, when nintendo was walking on eggshells.. tons of 2d games... multiple new super mario games in 1 year for example.. and a slew of kirby and yoshi titles... msot of which were not particularly impressive or interesting...
just watching some videos of dkcr and dkcrtf makes it painfully obvious that retro still has talent... and that the talent was being wasted
you also have to remember that when we talk about retro post cretaives leaving, we also need to examine, WHY the creatives left, and most signs point towards nintendo stifling them creatively...
I just don't think it is fair to assume retro is the problem when the actual evidence put before us seems to paint it in the opposite direction...
also, while retro bled some key creative talent during the first dkcr game, they also added some significant talent from places like naughty dog, valve, and lucas arts, and several pretty damn talented artists too, I remember being excited about what they would do at retro after going through the art attributed to them online...
when nintendow as misusing retro they were misusing everyone... thankfully that era seems to be over... as fun as mario 3d world was, it wans't the ambitious game fans wanted, and that fans knew ead tokyo could make... that was mario oddysey... same team btw.... same goes for zelda... look at how limited skyword sword is, and just how fucking vast and complex and somehow serenely polished breath of the wild is
look at the steps between mario kart wii and mario kart 7 and mario kart 8... the wii version was just dull, 7 was unsurprising... 8 looked next gen at its release had characters interactign with eachother like never before, breathing life into every moment...
nintendo had before been trying to simplify, and they have sicne given up that tact... the dkcr games are just from that era, which is now over
HOPEFULLY that means something far more ambitious from retro
It matters as much as you want to contextualize it. For me, the context is a developer who simply isn't getting games out there, and the last time they did, they even needed help to make one of the most basic of all gaming genres.
BotW was probably the biggest production in Nintendo's history. DK:TF was a 2D platformer. One of those games should absolutely require help considering the degree of difficulty...and it isn't the 2D platformer I'm referring to.
I completely agree. And losing creative talent is my entire point. Retro lost a lot. That's why saying "hey, they're obviously just as good as ever" is a dubious claim.
Ambitious for its genre, maybe. But that's it. Put it this way - if Nintendo announced tomorrow that they're making a new 2D New Super Mario Bros, people would just sort of nod. But if the next announcement from Nintendo was it was Monolith's next big game, most of us would flip a table.
NSMB would sell more than Xenoblade. Monolith could probably make a great, ambitious platformer. It wouldn't change that it'd be a colossal misuse of talent.
...unless you add in context of "well, Monolith lost a lot of creative talent, Takahashi and Koh Kojima left" or something. Because then it's safe to wonder exactly what the direction of the studio would be. No different with Retro.
Actual evidence? The only actual evidence is the people who have left and the games that have been made since. I hope for more ambition from Retro, too. But I'm not gonna say I'm confident that Retro is the same bleeding edge developer they were, capable of making industry-shaking games. They have to prove that.
Releasing something - anything - would be a nice start.
BotW was probably the biggest production in Nintendo's history. DK:TF was a 2D platformer. One of those games should absolutely require help considering the degree of difficulty...and it isn't the 2D platformer I'm referring to.
I completely agree. And losing creative talent is my entire point. Retro lost a lot. That's why saying "hey, they're obviously just as good as ever" is a dubious claim.
Ambitious for its genre, maybe. But that's it. Put it this way - if Nintendo announced tomorrow that they're making a new 2D New Super Mario Bros, people would just sort of nod. But if the next announcement from Nintendo was it was Monolith's next big game, most of us would flip a table.
NSMB would sell more than Xenoblade. Monolith could probably make a great, ambitious platformer. It wouldn't change that it'd be a colossal misuse of talent.
...unless you add in context of "well, Monolith lost a lot of creative talent, Takahashi and Koh Kojima left" or something. Because then it's safe to wonder exactly what the direction of the studio would be. No different with Retro.
Actual evidence? The only actual evidence is the people who have left and the games that have been made since. I hope for more ambition from Retro, too. But I'm not gonna say I'm confident that Retro is the same bleeding edge developer they were, capable of making industry-shaking games. They have to prove that.
Releasing something - anything - would be a nice start.
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I think whatever Retro's actually making just can't match the years of hyped expectations and doubt in their value as a developer. It's like with Valve and Half Life 3. No matter what they release, we'll be left wondering, "where did those 10 years of R&D and creative growth go?"
That's another thing. In order to continue to make great games, a development studio has to keep honing their craft with practice and with game releases. Look at MonolithSoft again. 10 years ago, they were transitioning from Baiten Kaitos 2 to Soma Bringer. Since then they've released Xenoblade and Xenoblade X, while also opening a new branch near Nintendo's headquarters to help them with just about every major game release. This is what's led to them being able to put Xenoblade 2 on the Switch, which is kind of a miracle, as well as cramming the game to the brim with massive levels, complex game systems, and a ridiculously complex battle system that somehow works without a single on-screen menu.
But 10 years after Prime 3, how has Retro honed their craft, at least in regards to the deep, polished adventure game we all expect from them? Whatever they make, it might only turn out to be a slight improvement upon Prime 3. Which is not something to scoff at, but it's certainly not something that's going to show 10 years of improved game design.
That's another thing. In order to continue to make great games, a development studio has to keep honing their craft with practice and with game releases. Look at MonolithSoft again. 10 years ago, they were transitioning from Baiten Kaitos 2 to Soma Bringer. Since then they've released Xenoblade and Xenoblade X, while also opening a new branch near Nintendo's headquarters to help them with just about every major game release. This is what's led to them being able to put Xenoblade 2 on the Switch, which is kind of a miracle, as well as cramming the game to the brim with massive levels, complex game systems, and a ridiculously complex battle system that somehow works without a single on-screen menu.
But 10 years after Prime 3, how has Retro honed their craft, at least in regards to the deep, polished adventure game we all expect from them? Whatever they make, it might only turn out to be a slight improvement upon Prime 3. Which is not something to scoff at, but it's certainly not something that's going to show 10 years of improved game design.
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The thing is I am called in to provide evidence that Retro is not a waste...I can't prove a negative when they are silent...
Yes they lost a lot of creative talent, but as I said, they also gained a large amount from Lucas arts, naughty dog, and several other huge developers, they gained some artists with some really neat portfolios too
I agree that they aren't the same Retro, but that doesn't mean they are a shitty Retro either
There was nothing won't with the stuff they have worked on as well, not a single misstep, just also not anything new or surprising
When I say they lost creatives and we're in a flux... That was THEN... They have a great number of new creatives now, who should have found their placed in the company by now
I just don't see the lack of an ambitious project as something to blame them for... Nintendo makes those calls, not then
.. And I don't think it had anything to do with a lack of trust... It is more like they just found a less ambitious more profitable avenue for them, so they took it... But Nintendo was all about scaling back ambition back then too... Now they are all about pushing limits, so let's see what Retro had in the world, before assuming it is trash
It isn't as if Retro had every made a bad game... Even their less ambitious fair was pushing the limits of ambition beyond the genre s top competitors, even those at EAD...
They never stopped playing with 3d graphics, not did they stop making large scripted event set pieces... They just did so with 2d gameplay... Which was also pretty much universally acclaimed
I didn't stay doubting monolith when they did disaster, and that was an ACTUAL BAD GAME.
I didn't doubt EAD Tokyo when they made the far less ambitious 3d world
I did start to doubt the Zelda team after skyward sword, but look know they turned that around...I also doubted the Mario Kart team before 8... Which, btw, like 7, had Retros involvement
Hell even after the big creatives left Retro, Retro helped unusual with red steel 2 according to that games director, and just consider how many Retro touches that game had... It shows that a lot of the same game design concepts were floating around with the staff
I just see no evidence that Retro sucks now, they just haven't been given a real chance to shine
Hell, even prime wasnt a real shot for them, it was an existing IP
Yes they lost a lot of creative talent, but as I said, they also gained a large amount from Lucas arts, naughty dog, and several other huge developers, they gained some artists with some really neat portfolios too
I agree that they aren't the same Retro, but that doesn't mean they are a shitty Retro either
There was nothing won't with the stuff they have worked on as well, not a single misstep, just also not anything new or surprising
When I say they lost creatives and we're in a flux... That was THEN... They have a great number of new creatives now, who should have found their placed in the company by now
I just don't see the lack of an ambitious project as something to blame them for... Nintendo makes those calls, not then
.. And I don't think it had anything to do with a lack of trust... It is more like they just found a less ambitious more profitable avenue for them, so they took it... But Nintendo was all about scaling back ambition back then too... Now they are all about pushing limits, so let's see what Retro had in the world, before assuming it is trash
It isn't as if Retro had every made a bad game... Even their less ambitious fair was pushing the limits of ambition beyond the genre s top competitors, even those at EAD...
They never stopped playing with 3d graphics, not did they stop making large scripted event set pieces... They just did so with 2d gameplay... Which was also pretty much universally acclaimed
I didn't stay doubting monolith when they did disaster, and that was an ACTUAL BAD GAME.
I didn't doubt EAD Tokyo when they made the far less ambitious 3d world
I did start to doubt the Zelda team after skyward sword, but look know they turned that around...I also doubted the Mario Kart team before 8... Which, btw, like 7, had Retros involvement
Hell even after the big creatives left Retro, Retro helped unusual with red steel 2 according to that games director, and just consider how many Retro touches that game had... It shows that a lot of the same game design concepts were floating around with the staff
I just see no evidence that Retro sucks now, they just haven't been given a real chance to shine
Hell, even prime wasnt a real shot for them, it was an existing IP
One thing I've noticed is there's nothing wrong with Retro's track record of making games. Every single one of them have been highly praised and critically acclaimed, and yet some might suggest they are a waste (not saying it's people here), or they should've been making this game, or this game. The problem then becomes not Retro themselves, but the fans who feel they know better than Retro. I think a lot of this started after Metroid Prime 3, and only solidified after Tropical Freeze was announced as the surprise announcement. Basically, gamers' expectations were shattered, and as a result, some suggested that Retro are losing their touch. So there's nothing inherently wrong with the games, it's the gamers with a flawed sense of expectations (which in more recent terms is why some people are disappointed with Star Wars: The Last Jedi).
Again though, I'll stand by what I said earlier that we will hear and see what Retro are working on next year, possibly during the January Direct (if there is one), and it'll be one of the big holiday releases.
Again though, I'll stand by what I said earlier that we will hear and see what Retro are working on next year, possibly during the January Direct (if there is one), and it'll be one of the big holiday releases.
After releasing two 2D Platforming games, people have been waiting for Retro to return to Prime glory, and create the next technical masterpiece that really blows people away. In all likelihood, that Retro has indeed past, but the idea that Retro is a lost cause isn't founded in reality, but instead founded in disappointment. They have indeed acquired talent over the years, every time EA destroys a developer, and they do this often, talent become available.
Like @EvilTw1n said, we just need to see them announce something, anything, because silence for this long creates suspicion, and hence theories and rumors begin to circulate about their certain doom. Even if Retro is only a DKC team at this point, I can accept that, but for fucks sake, release the follow up already. DKC TF was excellent, and while I was salty at the time because I really wanted them to be making a new Prime, but now I just want to see them making more quality games regardless of the genre.
If we still haven't heard anything by the time E3 rolls around then perhaps Retro really is in turmoil, but for now I remain optimistic that they have a new quality game to show off very soon.
Like @EvilTw1n said, we just need to see them announce something, anything, because silence for this long creates suspicion, and hence theories and rumors begin to circulate about their certain doom. Even if Retro is only a DKC team at this point, I can accept that, but for fucks sake, release the follow up already. DKC TF was excellent, and while I was salty at the time because I really wanted them to be making a new Prime, but now I just want to see them making more quality games regardless of the genre.
If we still haven't heard anything by the time E3 rolls around then perhaps Retro really is in turmoil, but for now I remain optimistic that they have a new quality game to show off very soon.