When does nostalgia become good nostalgia, or when does nostalgia become bad nostalgia?

ASuch

The Salt Master
#1
I was reading this article from Yahtzee, host of Zero Punctuation, called "What Has Nintendo Done Right Lately?" http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/11018-What-Has-Nintendo-Done-Right-Lately
The first part discusses what he thinks Nintendo should do, but the main topic is the second half of it, where he argues that Nintendo is banking too much on nostalgia, and more often than not, he sees it as bad nostalgia. To quote,
"Last week we were talking about nostalgia, and we learned that nostalgia is like a ten-inch stiffy. In the right circumstances it is very welcome and very handy to have around, but there are other circumstances when it just breeds negativity. Like if you flop it out while meeting the in-laws and let it drip on the rug. Nintendo used to wield that ten-inch stiffy like a cross between a world-class porn director and a master swordsman, but it's been sending more and more of my rugs to the dry cleaners lately. We remember that good nostalgia consists of evoking and learning from the past, whereas bad nostalgia is a refusal to move on from it."
He later writes that an example of good nostalgia was Super Mario Galaxy, where he saw Nintendo as moving the Mario franchise forward while keeping the core principles intact. With current games from Nintendo, he sees them as SNES games, taking a step back instead of a step forward.
He goes on to criticize A Link Between Worlds for what he thinks as lazy game design, pertaining to the renting system. He writes,
"Oh, but there is something new. Instead of a properly crafted, paced experience with a natural difficulty curve in which the game world gradually unlocks as you collect tools allowing access to more areas and powerups, Link Between Worlds just dumps them all on you at the start. You rent them out from a shop for 50 of the local quid, and if you die, they go back and you have to rent them again for another 50. Alternatively you can buy them outright for a much larger price.
Innovative, sure, but two things: firstly, this doesn't in itself turn the bad nostalgia into good nostalgia, it's just bad nostalgia with one new idea in it. And secondly, I wonder if it's entirely coincidental that as well as being innovative, this gameplay model is also a hell of a lot easier to implement than something like the aforesaid properly paced experience."
div>To analogize with the current state of Nintendo, he concludes,
"What this has done, reader, is make the game less about adventure and exploration and saving the princess, and more about money. Making lots of money to hoard and spend on things. Oh, Nintendo. Are you wearing your heart on your sleeve again?"
I think he does have a point. This is the video he's mentioning: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/8789-The-Legend-of-Zelda-A-Link-Between-Worlds
Now, he's not bashing Nintendo just because. In the video above, he mentions how he's supporting Nintendo the most right now, because they made a games console, not an inferior PC. But he also balances that with the current problems he sees. He also says,
"You can make yourself as fertile as you like but you can't make a baby without a few good hard dickings" in reference to the sparsity of games on the Wii U. He also thinks Nintendo as thinking that the Wii was going to ride off into the sunset, but once the amount of quality games started dropping like flies, they went to the stables to beat out a Zelda and Mario game, which is what Nintendo is doing with the Wii U. He also refers to games like 3D World as "nostalgia bait". He recognizes games like Bayonetta 2 being a much needed title for the Wii U library, but otherwise, he thinks Nintendo isn't doing much else themselves besides trying to do the exact same strategy they did with the Wii with "nostalgia bait".
What do y'all think?
 
#2
Nostalgia is fine if it's used with a great game. Retro's DK games are filled with nostalgia, but they're great experiences on their own and play differently than Rare's DKC games. That's fine.
Yoshi's New Island is probably the most nostalgia filled game lately, but again, it's a great game in it's own right and has new ideas and mechanics.
I have to disagree with him on Link Between Worlds. That's a masterful game imo and feels fresh. I like how I can explore most of the world from the outset, and do dungeons in any order. It feels like MY own adventure, and not a scripted "you must do this" game. I found it very well done. Even if the world is the same, secrets are in different spots, the dungeons are all different with new mechanics of their own, and I just love it.

What I don't get, is why Nintendo is the only company getting flack for this shit. Call of Duty hasn't changed at all, and in fact, most long running franchises don't change. Is it because Zelda is around 30 years old? So in a decade or so, will we be giving shit to Sony because God of War hasn't changed and it's the same thing over and over? Personally, people who give shit to Link Between Worlds for being to same-y while praising the new God of War is a hypocrite.
Nostalgia is okay when used to make a great experience even better. I'm always for new ideas, but if these new ideas are used on top of fan service, then I'm fine with it. Mega Man 9 and 10 are other examples. Also, I'm not blind to Nintendo, regulars here know I'm not a fanboy, but I really do think when Nintendo does the nostalgic game, they usually get it right, but I'll admit, 4 New Super Mario games are a bit much, despite still being good.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#3
CoD Ghosts is an example of the series getting really shit reviews, because critics are catching on to the fact that it's not changing. So in that respect, attitudes of the journalists are changing. And generally, people don't feel nostalgia for games that are two years old. People did criticize Killzone ShadowFall for still feeling like a Killzone game from two generations ago, while DR3 was criticized for regressing the progress the series had made.
 

Majorbuddah

My real name is Dolemite
#4
i think good nostalgia is like super mario world and bad nostalgia is like your uncle that one time when you were 6 and we don't talk about it but def don't let him around your kids.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#5
I think also, story-based games or games that rely more on their story are treated slightly more fairly, as with a new experience, the audience is expecting a great continuation to the story set up by the previous game. It could be argued that Metal Gear Solid is a stagnant franchise, but the varied and interesting story keeps it from having stale gameplay. Although, the series innovates with practically every title and pushes boundaries with each installment, so it doesn't hurt to progress there
But with something like Final Fantasy, the series is crumbling with XIII. People complained that FFXIII-2 was too similar to XIII in terms of quality of gameplay, and everyone complained about the lackluster story. SE didn't expect to have to progress as far as they should have done with a reaction like that.
 
#6
You make good points ASuch, and I'll admit that yeah, other franchises do get some flack for it, but I mean most of this I see is directed at Nintendo. And I'm more so pissed that the industry just likes to point how much Nintendo is fucking up when neither the PS4 nor Xbone are perfect either.
I will say this though, despite how great Nintendo's first party software is on Wii U, they have been playing it (mostly) safe in terms of games
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#7
I think he has a point in the abstract, but isn't entirely accurate in the particulars.

CoD Ghosts is an example of the series getting really shit reviews, because critics are catching on to the fact that it's not changing. So in that respect, attitudes of the journalists are changing.
This is something that sorta stuck in my craw, tbh. One, I think Ghosts was far more ambitious in its map design and game mechanics than BO2 was, and it seems like no one bothered to notice (reviewers paid more attention to the single player than how the multiplayer turned out). Two, there are only so many ways you can change playing online team death match (or a racing sim, or a 2d fighter, etc.). There's a point to be made on market saturation, but that's not related to outright quality and how rare true originality is.

But anyways. Like everything else, I think it comes down to balance. You have to respect what has been successful and work to please the audience that wants those games, but you also have to innovate and provide something new. With the Wii U, Nintendo has been good at the former, but not the latter. I'd wager that they'll get the balance right in the future, though.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#8
I think they'll have to, and they hopefully will start to do the latter. If MK8 and Smash don't succeed in bringing Wii U's sales to where they should be, it will hopefully become apparent to Nintendo that they need to change their strategy.
The Wii was a fluke. If Wii Sports and the promise of motion controls driving the future wasn't present in the Wii, it would have sold as much as the Gamecube.
 
#9
Great thread. And yeah, I harmonize on his point of them making a game console and not inferior PC :> ;) (I'll address the rebuttals in that thread in the morning)

As stated in my unfinished article, Nintendo brags about looking at the past to shape their future, but all they're doing is showing that they misunderstand what has made them so successful. Rehashing concepts isn't their roaring past, crafting new ones is, and that's why all I see in the Wii U is the worst of Nintendo (the Nintendo that does the bare minimum).
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#10
Nostalgia is always good imo.... Bad nostalgia...? I think dude just invented that shit.... Good for you guy for inventing something completely useless....
 

Superfakerbros

ECE 2018
Moderator
#11
Aside from the NSMB games and, more recently, Yoshi's New Island, I don't really see Nintendo being overly reliant on nostalgia or using it to solely sell their games, as they always introduce something new or different in-between releases. Each entry in the franchise shares the basic core gameplay but they always change and improve on anything else. I can agree that their series may play it a bit safe every now and then but they still change more than most high-quality franchises out there and definitely more than anyone else's 1st/2nd party titles. That being said, yeah, nostalgia can be bad, especially if we're talking about the nostalgia people have for the games they used to play when they were kids as it can blind them from appreciating new experiences and new entries in the games they like. Not to mention, it can also be bad for developers if they're unwilling to progress beyond what they've done previously
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#12
nos·tal·gia noun nä-ˈstal-jə, nə- also nȯ-, nō-; nə-ˈstäl-
: pleasure and sadness that is caused by remembering something from the past and wishing that you could experience it again
esh%2Conload&id=I0_1395880303548&parent=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com&pfname=&rpctoken=42057728" data-gapiattached="true" title="+1" style="position: static; top: 0px; width: 32px; margin: 0px; border-style: none; left: 0px; visibility: visible; height: 20px;">Full Definition of NOSTALGIA1: the state of being homesick : homesickness2: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition; also : something that evokes nostalgia
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#13
I mean just listen to this guy....
"So personally I think it may be in Nintendo's best interests to give up while they're in distant third place and pull a Sega, 'cos a dedicated games platform relies almost solely upon the quality of games, and that quality has dropped due to a lack of due care and attention, brought about by issues with the platform, ironically." - Some dumbass on some website
Really..? Is that so...? Hmmm....
Lack of quality in Nintendo games...? That's one of the dumbest fucking things I have ever read.... GTFO....
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#14
It's called someone's opinion LSB, and I made this thread to debate his point about good and bad nostalgia, when I specifically said in my OP that the first part of it just talks about what he thinks Nintendo should do, but that wasn't the point of the thread
Just because they don't agree with what you think doesn't make them a dumbass, it makes them a different person
 
#15
Well, ASuch didn't really quote that part so I wouldn't really bring that in. I don't think the solution to Nintendo's problem is to call it quits (imagine if everyone solved their problems that way). They just need to have spent some time getting their head back in the game.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#16
Yahtzee, the writer, even says himself in the video in the OP,
"Well bugger all Nintendo will probably find some way to fix itself anyway"
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#17
Nostalgia is always good imo.... Bad nostalgia...? I think dude just invented that shit.... Good for you guy for inventing something completely useless....
Good nostalgia - me remembering sleeping with a beautiful woman.

Bad nostalgia - her remembering that she slept with me.
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#18
So I guess Nintendo supporting the Wii U and funding development for it's successor would be considered "bad nostalgia" by Skip-Bo.... Errr... I mean....
....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji8igUMW4M
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#19
So I guess Nintendo supporting the Wii U and funding development for it's successor would be considered "bad nostalgia" by Skip-Bo.... Errr... I mean....
....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji8igUMW4M
To quote him, he sees Nintendo as trying to do the same thing they did with the Wii; they see it's starting to waver quite a lot, so they start flogging their horses to beat out some games to try to remedy it. He doesn't see all modern Nintendo games as bad nostalgia. Like with Super Mario Galaxy, he named that game as one of his favorites of last generation because it was what he saw as Nintendo magic finally put in one of their games. Galaxy, while being reminiscent of past Mario games, becomes its own by truly being a new and innovative experience
And he doesn't only beat Nintendo for this, either
He criticizes Naughty Dog for sticking with a typical formula for Uncharted with its sequels, and for the Last of Us basically being Nathan Drake in the apocalypse
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#20
Yep.... That's it.... Yahtzee has figured out how Nintendo can truly innovate.... By tucking their tails between their legs and running home to momma....
You see this is part of what this guy completely misses due to too much BS comming out his face passing through his fingers and onto the internet....
A HUGE part of the innovation that comes from Nintendo games is due to the unique hardware associated with them.... In other words you would completely lose that hardware innovation if Nintendo wasn't making their own consoles anymore....
How many times does Nintendo literally have to change the way we play console games for people to understand that Nintendo is just as much about hardware innovation as software innovation.... They are one and the same....
To even think about a Nintendo that doesn't have this balance of hardware and software innovation makes me cringe.... They would be just like everyone else....
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#21
There was nothing innovative about the SNES, which people cite as the best Nintendo console ever
There was nothing innovative about the GCN either, which people cite as having one of the best libraries
With the Wii; Nintendo was stuck with an "innovation" that didn't work out, so what's the solution? Shoehorn it into fucking everything to the point of making something which would have been easier and more fun by pressing a button into something you need to praise Satan to accomplish.
And to Yahtzee, he doesn't see anything on the Wii U that really justifies the mandate of the GamePad. If your hardware gimmick fails, what else do you have? Motion did nothing for gaming except give Nintendo a false sense of security.
There was nothing revolutionary about the SNES. Yet, people regard it as having one of the top libraries in all of gaming. Fancy that
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#22
The SNES controller was to be a template for almost every other controller ever designed ever.... If that isn't innovative, I don't know what is....
And the Gamecube was a huge step for Nintendo themselves.... It was the first Nintendo console to use Optical Media, the first to have online fincionality and also the first time Nintendo would adopt the dual analog control scheme by changing the c-buttons on the N64 controller into the C-Stick on the Gamecube one....


.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#23
That is nothing innovative. Sony and MS did both before.
And the SNES controller is the NES controller with 2 more buttons added to the top. Whoop-de-do
Mario Galaxy is one of the most innovative games last gen. The game had no possible innovation from the hardware, it was entirely from the game. There was nothing from the Wii that contributed to Galaxy's innovation
SotC was praised for being one of the most innovative games of its respective generation. There was nothing innovative about the PS2 either, it was all the game, nothing to do with the hardware.
For Nintendo, hardware is becoming a crutch to force all game design aspects around it when it's been better traditionally and can be really improved and progressed by continuing on that road
Look man, we're obviously not going to reach an agreement here, lol
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#24
There's no such thing as good nostalgia. Apparently people dont understand the English language as per usual.

Nostalgia is the equivalent of being a Genwunner and only sticking to the gen 1 games because that's when it was "the best"

Nostalgia. Shit the word's etymology is

Nost is homecoming,past Algos is pain, longing, numb
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#25
I mean people act like Nintendo didn't bring the analog stick to console games or fucking invent the D-Pad or bring Motion Controls to the masses....
WTF is wrong with you people...? How easily you have forgotten.... Nintendo has innovated and inspired the game industry since they helped reinvigorate it in the mid-late 80's....
Shame on you....
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#28
But on the subject of the article I think I should put this out there.

Yahtzee doesnt like Nintendo, he's quite jaded about them and he thinks he panders to their fanbase to much. So I tend to ignore his more off the cuff remarks because he reminds me of an old man yapping about his commodore.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#30
But on the subject of the article I think I should put this out there.

Yahtzee doesnt like Nintendo, he's quite jaded about them and he thinks he panders to their fanbase to much. So I tend to ignore his more off the cuff remarks because he reminds me of an old man yapping about his commodore.


He doesn't like many things, but he stays absolutely consistent in every remark he makes. Sometimes the most cynical bring up the greatest issue
I mean people act like Nintendo didn't bring the analog stick to console games or fucking invent the D-Pad or bring Motion Controls to the masses....
WTF is wrong with you people...? How easily you have forgotten.... Nintendo has innovated and inspired the game industry since they helped reinvigorate it in the mid-late 80's....
Shame on you....
Tell me, how did motion controls affect Mario Galaxy, one of the most innovative games of last generation? What part of the Wii enabled SMG to pull off something like that? How did motion controls affect Xenoblade? Right, they fucking didn't. No part of the hardware helped the innovation of either game. Did Nintendo innovate in the past? Yes. Yahtzee also recognizes that. Do I think Nintendo is innovating just for the sake of innovating without having any games that really justify the innovation? Yes. By god yes.
If anything, Nintendo innovated with motion controls by showing how useless they are after the fad wears off.
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#31
That is nothing innovative. Sony and MS did both before.
And the SNES controller is the NES controller with 2 more buttons added to the top. Whoop-de-do
Mario Galaxy is one of the most innovative games last gen. The game had no possible innovation from the hardware, it was entirely from the game. There was nothing from the Wii that contributed to Galaxy's innovation
SotC was praised for being one of the most innovative games of its respective generation. There was nothing innovative about the PS2 either, it was all the game, nothing to do with the hardware.
For Nintendo, hardware is becoming a crutch to force all game design aspects around it when it's been better traditionally and can be really improved and progressed by continuing on that road
Look man, we're obviously not going to reach an agreement here, lol
You got to be fucking kidding me.

Nintendo's console's have always innovated. Nintendo's been about crafting an experience for the end user that's bar none the finest, In the name of that they change their hardware and they change their software, looking to bring a new element to the table. That's why they crafted many of the staples that have become standard in this industry over a long period of time. This is why people are CRITICAL of them, because they've always been the leaders in pushing gaming forward. The GCN added a ton of new elements to the game as well as refining the game in what people came to expect out of console. Like the SNES did over the NES. ( And the GCN from a technical perspective WAS innovative. Nintendo had an entirely new kind of CPU and GPU custom built to utilize new technologies when it came to creating games and various uses for it, that's why its become a staple in their hardware)

You dont believe me? Well kid take some time and read this, I think you'll learn a thing or two
http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/


the SNES is the refinement of the NES.
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#32
Refinement is not innovation. The SNES didn't bring in a "new way to play". It only brought in a more progressive refinement of what had been offered previously. And you know what? It was for the best. Same with the GCN. The GCN is one of the most "traditional" consoles made by Nintendo. It didn't sell that well, but it was up against the freaking PS2. Motion controls are not mainstays of the industry like Nintendo had hoped, thankfully. Neither is 3D.
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#33
But on the subject of the article I think I should put this out there.

Yahtzee doesnt like Nintendo, he's quite jaded about them and he thinks he panders to their fanbase to much. So I tend to ignore his more off the cuff remarks because he reminds me of an old man yapping about his commodore.


He doesn't like many things, but he stays absolutely consistent in every remark he makes. Sometimes the most cynical bring up the greatest issue
I mean people act like Nintendo didn't bring the analog stick to console games or fucking invent the D-Pad or bring Motion Controls to the masses....
WTF is wrong with you people...? How easily you have forgotten.... Nintendo has innovated and inspired the game industry since they helped reinvigorate it in the mid-late 80's....
Shame on you....
Tell me, how did motion controls affect Mario Galaxy, one of the most innovative games of last generation? What part of the Wii enabled SMG to pull off something like that? How did motion controls affect Xenoblade? Right, they fucking didn't. No part of the hardware helped the innovation of either game. Did Nintendo innovate in the past? Yes. Yahtzee also recognizes that. Do I think Nintendo is innovating just for the sake of innovating without having any games that really justify the innovation? Yes. By god yes.
If anything, Nintendo innovated with motion controls by showing how useless they are after the fad wears off.
Xenoblade's control scheme on the WiiMote's actually better than it on the classic controller that came bundled with it XD
And Xenoblade's technical solutions were pretty damn awesome. They loaded the game into the system RAM(like Animal Crossing on the GCN) and had the environments autoload while you explore in the distance.

Mario Galaxy shows Nintendo's hand of master craft. One of the complaints about the WIi REmote was that it was shoehorned into everything, so Nintendo took that to note and took a subtle approach into how it was applied. I dont think Galaxy and the way it controlled would have been any better with a dual analog controller. Actually this is why they made the Worlds circular. ( Also See Sonic Lost World and how that game controls and then look at the review scores)
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#35
Damn kids these days.... No respect I tell ya....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwu-6GxBHN4

If I didn't respect the classics, my Steam library would be barebones. I wouldn't have put hours into Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, a game that looks poor by today's standards. If I didn't respect or like Nintendo, why would I own a GBC, GBA, DS Lite, 3DS, Wii, and a Wii U? :p

But on the subject of the article I think I should put this out there.

Yahtzee doesnt like Nintendo, he's quite jaded about them and he thinks he panders to their fanbase to much. So I tend to ignore his more off the cuff remarks because he reminds me of an old man yapping about his commodore.
He doesn't like many things, but he stays absolutely consistent in every remark he makes. Sometimes the most cynical bring up the greatest issue
I mean people act like Nintendo didn't bring the analog stick to console games or fucking invent the D-Pad or bring Motion Controls to the masses....
WTF is wrong with you people...? How easily you have forgotten.... Nintendo has innovated and inspired the game industry since they helped reinvigorate it in the mid-late 80's....
Shame on you....
Tell me, how did motion controls affect Mario Galaxy, one of the most innovative games of last generation? What part of the Wii enabled SMG to pull off something like that? How did motion controls affect Xenoblade? Right, they fucking didn't. No part of the hardware helped the innovation of either game. Did Nintendo innovate in the past? Yes. Yahtzee also recognizes that. Do I think Nintendo is innovating just for the sake of innovating without having any games that really justify the innovation? Yes. By god yes.
If anything, Nintendo innovated with motion controls by showing how useless they are after the fad wears off.
Xenoblade's control scheme on the WiiMote's actually better than it on the classic controller that came bundled with it XD
And Xenoblade's technical solutions were pretty damn awesome. They loaded the game into the system RAM(like Animal Crossing on the GCN) and had the environments autoload while you explore in the distance.

Mario Galaxy shows Nintendo's hand of master craft. One of the complaints about the WIi REmote was that it was shoehorned into everything, so Nintendo took that to note and took a subtle approach into how it was applied. I dont think Galaxy and the way it controlled would have been any better with a dual analog controller. Actually this is why they made the Worlds circular. ( Also See Sonic Lost World and how that game controls and then look at the review scores)
While that is actually pretty funny and cool, technical limitations usually don't lead to innovation, unless you're Street Fighter 2 :p
The main point I was making, was that the purpose of the controller didn't in any way help either of those two games, and yet they are among the most highly regarded of last gen. :p
 

Juegos

All mods go to heaven.
Moderator
#36
I also disagree with the separation of "good nostalgia" from "bad nostalgia". What he means is "nostalgia that I like" and "nostalgia that I don't like". Nostalgia is nostalgia, you either like it or you don't. It's fair if you like it in some places but not in others, but what Yahtzee is doing here, as he often does, is coming up with discrete, academic-sounding categories to give his opinion more stature. But in the end, he's still basically saying "they should only do it when I'll like it, not when I won't".
He's also completely off in saying that Super Mario 3D World is nostalgia bait. That game is actually sort of the opposite of nostalgia bait, as it's goal seems to be to appeal first and foremost to today's kids, in some cases at the expense of the NES kids (just ask Matt).
That's not to say that I don't think we value nostalgia too much right now. But there's a difference between liking the familiarity of something you have received continuously for a long time (2D platforming games), and looking back at the dead past with rose-tinted glasses (80s throwback music, Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon, retro indie games).
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#37
Refinement is not innovation. The SNES didn't bring in a "new way to play". It only brought in a more progressive refinement of what had been offered previously. And you know what? It was for the best. Same with the GCN. The GCN is one of the most "traditional" consoles made by Nintendo. It didn't sell that well, but it was up against the freaking PS2. Motion controls are not mainstays of the industry like Nintendo had hoped, thankfully. Neither is 3D.
I implore you to read what I posted boy

Rather than just trying to suit things to your own ideas. The SNES and the GCN were market reactions driven by NIntendo's desire to compete. That's why one of the main goals for the GCN was to make the best controller ever made. The SNES was due to Sega's Genesis. So Nintendo created one of the best designed consoles ever and refined their ideas with the NES and added the back bumpers.

Rather I'd point you to their handhelds. They've always followed this style of Innovation -> Refinement ->Innovation -> Refinement

GB-GBC-GBA-DS-3DS is a perfect example of this

Streetpass is a great example of this. This was a concept started in Nintendogs. Then nintendo evolved it into a meaty system feature that people really enjoy that allowed for new types of games that are inherently "social".

3D's a Visual feature. Its about as much of innovation as HD, but Nintendo's done some smart things in how they design games to take advantage of the depth in 3D

(rather not get into their earlier handhelds since it'll go over your young head lol)
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#38
Because most of the people who play video games are introduced to them as young children they ultimately inherit an inate ability to invoke the foundness of our childhood as we play them well into our adulthood....
That feeling of nostalgia you get when playing any game you play.... That warm, squishy feeling you get.... That reminds you of why you started playing games in the first place...?
If any of you consider that feeling to be a bad one, then me and you are two completely different species....
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#39
And even with Nintendo's consoles that were more about refinement these guys were still doing wacky shit.

The prototype for the WiiU came from the GBA-GCN pair, the SNES had all sorts of weird add ons in japan, and things like the satteliteview , they're doing new things all the time. That's how they're able to deliver on certain concept.

Geh I think I'll go play Godfather and Madworld now lol


http://www.dromble.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/tales-of-a-dolphin.jpg

http://www.dromble.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Gyropod.jpg
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#40
Well, obviously. He probably recognizes that a lot of this is all subjective. Some people are fine with eating just fruits their entire lives, while others get sick of it after a while. I think it was TotalBiscuit, but he made a pretty good point about game critics:
"You have to factor in the game critic's point of view. If he doesn't like a game that doesn't have a meaningful story, he might dock off the game's personal score for him based on that. But you may look at that and say 'I don't really care too much if the story sucks' so you might like the game more than the reviewer. Their opinion shouldn't be devalued or ignored, but it should be used as a basis for what you might like or dislike in a certain video game"
I think this does certainly ring true here. I can't think of anyone on this site who has similar tastes to Yahtzee, so it's hard for many of us to see his point of view. It's something I think we all have to start recognizing. It's easy to say that everyone's different, but being able to apply that is a shit ton harder. It's as hard for children as it is adults. Like, for me. My tastes have changed a lot since many of you knew me on the Wii Lobby. I was a Nintendo nut-hugger back then. Not hard for me to admit it. I was pissed at any positive remark made about Sony or Microsoft and defensive towards Nintendo. However, as I grew up, my tastes changed, and I expanded my range and got into PC gaming.
With something else, I'm a huge JRPG fan. It's probably my favorite genre. However, it's a lot harder for me to like an RPG that just oozes anime and weeaboo tropes. It's just a quirk about me that influences my opinions and choices I make regarding certain discussions. Yahtzee grew up with PC adventure games; he was never a huge console gamer. Can he still appreciate console games? Yes. He argues that consoles are more tailored to local multiplayer and single player, which is why he supports the Wii U more than the other next gen consoles. However, his background influences other decisions he makes. I don't know anyone here with the same or even a similar background as him. Instead of growing up with Monkey Island and Planescape Torment, almost all of you grew up with Mario 1.
Does that make anyone's opinion necessarily wrong? No. But is it something one should take in to consideration when discussing their views on the subject? Certainly.
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#41
Pretty much
I respect Yahtzee, but I prefer the perennial gay asshole that is Jim Sterling more. Lol.

Though I dont pay attention to him that much. His writing's too fruity.

Because most of the people who play video games are introduced to them as young children they ultimately inherit an inate ability to invoke the foundness of our childhood as we play them well into our adulthood....
That feeling of nostalgia you get when playing any game you play.... That warm, squishy feeling you get.... That reminds you of why you started playing games in the first place...?
If any of you consider that feeling to be a bad one, then me and you are two completely different species....
Ha, I got that feeling when I was playing Xenoblade, reminded me of when I played my first rpg ( Megami Tensei) when I played Chrono Trigger(pretty fucking awesome) and when I gave my nephew his first game and watched him play (Golden Sun)
 

ASuch

The Salt Master
#42
Refinement is not innovation. The SNES didn't bring in a "new way to play". It only brought in a more progressive refinement of what had been offered previously. And you know what? It was for the best. Same with the GCN. The GCN is one of the most "traditional" consoles made by Nintendo. It didn't sell that well, but it was up against the freaking PS2. Motion controls are not mainstays of the industry like Nintendo had hoped, thankfully. Neither is 3D.I implore you to read what I posted boy

Rather than just trying to suit things to your own ideas. The SNES and the GCN were market reactions driven by NIntendo's desire to compete. That's why one of the main goals for the GCN was to make the best controller ever made. The SNES was due to Sega's Genesis. So Nintendo created one of the best designed consoles ever and refined their ideas with the NES and added the back bumpers.

Rather I'd point you to their handhelds. They've always followed this style of Innovation -> Refinement ->Innovation -> Refinement

GB-GBC-GBA-DS-3DS is a perfect example of this

Streetpass is a great example of this. This was a concept started in Nintendogs. Then nintendo evolved it into a meaty system feature that people really enjoy that allowed for new types of games that are inherently "social".

3D's a Visual feature. Its about as much of innovation as HD, but Nintendo's done some smart things in how they design games to take advantage of the depth in 3D

(rather not get into their earlier handhelds since it'll go over your young head lol)
I have read every single word of this thread, mate. I still don't see refinement as the same thing as innovation. The Constitution wasn't innovative, necessarily. But it builds on past subjects and enhances them.
Seeing as no one really knows what he means by good and bad nostalgia, I'll take a guess
Good nostalgia - using a familiar base of something remembered because it was good, but progressing and expanding that in to a new experienceBad nostalgia - using a familiar base of something remembered to use as a crutch for the games' existence to get more money out of the consumer
And please, don't refer to me as a kid. I fucking hate that. If you're going to be patronizing do it somewhere else because I'm tired of that shit.

Because most of the people who play video games are introduced to them as young children they ultimately inherit an inate ability to invoke the foundness of our childhood as we play them well into our adulthood....
That feeling of nostalgia you get when playing any game you play.... That warm, squishy feeling you get.... That reminds you of why you started playing games in the first place...?
If any of you consider that feeling to be a bad one, then me and you are two completely different species....
Yahtzee makes an interesting statement in his ALBW video; he uses Half-Life 1 as an example. Hypothetically, what if Valve repackaged the original Half Life, gave it a new title, added some new levels, and a gun with a nipple on the front, and called it a completely new game while it still pretty much being the exact same? He said that everyone would call it ludicrous and they would be sent to the asylum. He doesn't discount nostalgia as something that isn't useful or good. He bought the new Thief because he had nostalgia of how good Thief 2 was, but that nostalgia baited him in to buying a piss poor experience that was the exact same as Thief 3.
 

TheAmazingLSB

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....
#43
ASuch the Kid....
You know, like Billy the Kid, except ASuch the Kid....
I think I like your new nickname....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpBSo2411j0
 

Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

Well-Known Member
#48
No one ever insinuated that refinement is innovation.

Refinement is very much apart of Nintendo's process, but they're always searching for that new element which leads them to innovating on all fronts.

That's what LSB is trying to tell you.

And you're the Kid from the Bastion. ASUCH it should BE.

And I done told you to go read the Gamecube Story yappo!!

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/
 
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