[wiiu] Company says Wii uU was a pain to work with!

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#3
Ah ok, I thought this was another developer, but it's just recapping the Eurogamer article. Still though, I would be very curious to know what company this mystery man works(ed). He/She gave hints based on they had a launch game, but nothing really after that. My first thought was someone from EA, which wouldn't surprise me.
 
#6
We talked about this briefly in other threads, but it seems this is only the accounts of one person rather than the accounts of everyone like Eurogamer makes it seem like. The article also doesn't address the fact that this is probably the case with every console (I mean, PS4 and Xbox One I believe had big day 1 updates).
 
#8
I can't speak for what it was like at launch, but I have had no major issues. When I did have a question about something, support got back to me in a timely fashion.

-Mike
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#9
This needs to be posted here.

So is shawn going to make an article about shinen and platinum?

http://playeressence.com/platinum-games-hideki-kamiya-says-the-wii-u-is-not-harder-to-develop-for-than-ps3xbox-360/
Eurogamer is busted again.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#12
I wasnt aware that Digital Foundry and Eurogamer were sister sites.


It explains so much



http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Emma-Watson-Listen-and-Agree.gif
 
#16
I wasnt aware that Digital Foundry and Eurogamer were sister* sites.


Its explains so much


http://trolldollsguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/towheadedtroll1.jpg

*Two headed sister troll may contain hot air. Side effects may include Nintendoom and loss of genitals.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#23
^
Huh? Is there a source/link? That'd be surprising, considering they were one of the few devs able to actually push the Wii U a bit.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#25
That's interesting. They also quote Alex Fry from Criterion in the previous "Secret Developers" article (look toward the bottom).
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-secret-developers-what-hardware-balance-actually-means-for-game-creators

Seems to add up. I can't imagine Eurogamer and EA trolling us, of course...

(And just on that initial "Secret Developers" article, what the hell are they talking about? Who the heck saw dropping a PS2 era game to 30 fps an "admission of failure"? Steady 30 fps was an upgrade compared to PSX and N64 era games. No one said "man, Halo sucks because it's at 30 fps." I mean this is internet message board discussion-level stuff.)
 
#29
Seeing as it's looking to only get worse for Eurogamer (save their souls if a big-time developer actually shuts-down their claims), they should probably do a follow up where they explain themselves.
 

Aki

Well-Known Member
#32
Just a suggestion, you guys should get some bigger devs to give you replies. I'm pretty sure that most, myself included, would rather lean towards the Digital Foundry article than towards the words of a Wii U only dev who makes eShop games. Just saying.
 
#33
It's really someone's prerogative if they want to take the word of one (not many) random anonymous developer than many with an actual names.
There's also the fact that many big developers have made comments in the past contradicting what the anon developer has said. The article had discrepancy issues from the get-go. People are just stuck in some sort of Nitnendoom complex, where a big name site could essentially publish an article that, for instance, claims Nintendo will release a new console next year (anon source) and people will believe it. Even if it gets debunked, since you can't kill an idea, people will still believe some form of the claim.
At any rate, the goal isn't to make contact with only big developers with the goal of debunking the digital foundry article. The goal is to provide readers with an inside look at the developmental side of the industry as it relates to the Wii U pre-launch and post-launch. You don't have to work for the likes of EA to be credible (You really need to just have touched a dev kit), but yeah, bigger developers are on the radar.
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#34
Thinking about doing StraightRight next. We've successfully made contact with them before.

I'd like to read that article. They've done great work with porting already released games to the Wii U. Deus Ex on Wii U is arguably the best version.
 

Aki

Well-Known Member
#35
@Jacesonnall: Have you actually read the article that you linked me? I'm asking because I just read it and it's literally filled with nothing. You have a scriptwriter commenting on the hardware. You have some guy saying that Wii U is next-gen in the sense that Wii was and I'm sure that you know, the majority of the gaming community did not consider Wii to be next-gen. You have the FIFA line producer, wtf is a line producer, commenting on FIFA 13 aka FIFA 11 on Wii U and all he's saying is that it's unique yet the actual game was missing major game modes associated with online play. You have the ME3 external producer who just comments on the GamePad and freeing up the TV. You have the THQ employee saying that Wii U is more capable than 360 and PS3, which it is in some cases, yet their game ran worse and looked worse on Wii U than it did on PS3 and X360. You have Epic who said it was capable of doing things the current gen systems can't, yet they aren't releasing Unreal Engine 4 on Wii U. You have Vigil Games talking about how they got their high end PC version of Darksiders II running on Wii U in 5 min, yet in the final product the graphics aren't as good as the PS3 and X360 version and neither is the framerate. You have Gearbox commenting on how powerful Wii U is, not comparing it to anything, yet the Aliens game didn't come to Wii U. You have Ubi commenting on Rayman Legends and how capable the Wii U is, yet Watch Dogs for Wii U is closer to the PS3 version of the game than it is the PS4 version of the game, just like ACIV was, which ran worse on Wii U than PS3 and 360. You've got Crytek commenting on how it's a nifty machine once you learn how to use it, implying that there is some trouble there. Finally, you have the two eShop producers and what are they going to say? Probably whatever doesn't lose them their job.
You take the comments from the Anon developer, which I believe is Criterion, or at least according to folks over here and at IGN, and you line them up with everything that's happened at launch and even after with the missing game modes and it matches up.
I think it's pretty apparent that developing for Wii U compared to PS4 and X1 is pretty hard and I think the article that you linked me shows just how desperate some Nintendo fans are to prove otherwise. This is the problem with Wii U. Keep acting like there's nothing wrong and eventually the fans will accept that and nothing will get better. The general mindset of the Nintendo community is a bit fucked up. If Sony fans didn't consistently bitch at Sony about PS3 when it first came out, it wouldn't have ended up with all the best games of the generation. If you go tell a PS4 fan that some company said PS4 sucks, they'll be like whatever because they know it doesn't. If you tell that to someone on the IGN Lobby or even a few users here, they will go to the ends of the earth to try and disprove it because of this sense of insecurity in regards to Nintendo.
 

mattavelle1

IT’S GOT A DEATH RAY!
Moderator
#36
On the same foot Aki you said them guys are gonna say whatever keeps them there job.

Obviously right now the considered AAA are working for MS and PS. Wouldn't it make since for them in the same situation to keep there jobs with MS and PS to pretty well run everything else in the dirt so they could "keep there jobs" aswell? It would especially easy to do so when your not working for the other guys anyhow.

Just a thought.
 
#37
I didn't think you'd question the quotes considering that you didn't bother questioning the digital foundry article. It pretty much ends there.

I can't tell you why games like Fifa, Darksiders II, etc on Wii U didn't end up delivering and I can't tell you why Epic spoke highly of the Wii U and didn't optimize Unreal Engine 4 on Wii U. I can't even tell you why EA came on stage staying that had unprecedented support for the Wii U, but then pretty much backed up on every turn, canceling games like Crysis 3 for Wii U before it even got announced and canceling a Star Wars themed Wii U project. I also can't tell you why GearBox touted Alien's Colonial Marines on Wii U repeatedly in interviews and didn't release it on the system (Actually I can. And the reason has nothing to do with Nintendo). Not sure what you're talking about with Ubisoft though. There's never been footage of the Wii U version.

Whatever the reason, it dosen't matter. What matters is that you have developers with names who initially spoke highly of the system, probably because they knew that, like with any system with custom specs, you have have to learn to develop for it. Whatever business decisions ensued is irrelevant. Anyone who has kept up with the latest news surrounding the Wii U and third party knows that it's a sales issue why there haven't been many 2014 games announced for Wii U.

You can also discriminate against indie developers all you want, but it's not going to change the fact they debunked some of the claims made in that article. You've got the anon developer saying it took weeks to get a response from Nintendo, and in broken English at that, when it took less of an amount of time for indies. You got the same guy talking about how long it takes to get a game up and running on the dev kit when you've got other indie developers saying it takes one click of a button with Unity. If you truly think that indie developers would forgo their bringing in income in a timely manner just to put up with apparent sh*t from Nintendo, I've got nothing more to add.

(Also, I hope you don't think it's Criterion because of the 6v6 thing)

I'm going to save myself some time and tell you that you should go read this thread: http://nintendoenthusiast.com/forums/discussion/1968/lets-talk-armillo/p1

And if you truly believe the PS4 and Xbox One are actually easier to developer for than the Wii U: http://www.oxm.co.uk/69150/capcom-xbox-one-and-ps4-games-are-eight-to-ten-times-more-work-than-current-gen/

Here's the thing aki. Nobody is denying the experience that anon dev had. It just seems that his experiences are severely outdated.
 
#38
I think the article that you linked me shows just how desperate some Nintendo fans are to prove otherwise. This is the problem with Wii U. Keep acting like there's nothing wrong and eventually the fans will accept that and nothing will get better. The general mindset of the Nintendo community is a bit fucked up. If Sony fans didn't consistently bitch at Sony about PS3 when it first came out, it wouldn't have ended up with all the best games of the generation. If you go tell a PS4 fan that some company said PS4 sucks, they'll be like whatever because they know it doesn't. If you tell that to someone on the IGN Lobby or even a few users here, they will go to the ends of the earth to try and disprove it because of this sense of insecurity in regards to Nintendo.
Really have NO idea why you're bringing up fanboys, the PS4's success, the IGN Lobby. Just chill out, man. You just got back. This isn't some big internet movement. Digital Foundry simply wrote an article with questionable information. People are just curious to see how much of it is true. If you'd like to live in a world where people don't question questionable information, here certainly isn't the place.
 

Aki

Well-Known Member
#39
I think the article that you linked me shows just how desperate some Nintendo fans are to prove otherwise. This is the problem with Wii U. Keep acting like there's nothing wrong and eventually the fans will accept that and nothing will get better. The general mindset of the Nintendo community is a bit fucked up. If Sony fans didn't consistently bitch at Sony about PS3 when it first came out, it wouldn't have ended up with all the best games of the generation. If you go tell a PS4 fan that some company said PS4 sucks, they'll be like whatever because they know it doesn't. If you tell that to someone on the IGN Lobby or even a few users here, they will go to the ends of the earth to try and disprove it because of this sense of insecurity in regards to Nintendo.
Really have NO idea why you're bringing up fanboys, the PS4's success, the IGN Lobby. Just chill out, man. You just got back. This isn't some big internet movement. Digital Foundry simply wrote an article with questionable information. People are just curious to see how much of it is true. If you'd like to live in a world where people don't question questionable information, here certainly isn't the place.
I'm bringing it up because I feel like you fall into the category of those people that I'm talking about. You say that you aren't denying the experience that the Anon dev had, yet that's exactly what you're attempting to do. It's evident by the "quotes" that you're trying to present to me. Every single one of them is a misleading quote, the Capcom quote included. This is why I don't subscribe to these conspiracy theories. You're reaching for straws to try and prove something that shouldn't come as a surprise. We all know what happened to third party ports when the system launched and what continues to happen. Wii U being hard to develop for should be a given. This whole time Sony was touting how easy PS4 dev was because of how similar the architecture is to a PC. The X1 is essentially a shittier PS4, so it shouldn't be that much harder. The Wii U is the only one that's radically different. It shouldn't come as a surprise and it's being blown out of proportion by those trying to defend it. PS2 was hard as fuck to develop for and yet everyone made games for it. I don't get what the big deal is.
 
#40
Here's an idea. Life isn't so black and white. By liking Nintendo, it doesn't necessarily mean one hates all of the competition. If you see an article with a developer saying that they found it very hard to develop for the PS4, that doesn't mean everyone finds it difficult to develop for the PS4. By searching for counter information, no, I'm not trying to dismiss the anon developer's experience, but I'm trying to see if other developers had it differently. It just so happens people didn't have to do much searching. If you're wondering why you're seeing developers come to the defense of Wii U, it's because of how Digital Foundry phrased the article. They didn't provide any context at all so there was no way to tell if the dev's experiences were still the case or even if his experiences were worse with the competition or not. It was a bad article, so it got a bad reception. That's it.

All this stuff about conspiracy theories and trying to defend something that doesn't even need defending is just silly to put it politely. If you want to believe that everyone is really like this, that's your prerogative, I choose not to.
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#41
buuuuuurrrnnn http://playeressence.com/former-resistance-skylanders-developer-says-nintendo-made-the-wii-u-easy-to-developer-for/
OK. So we have a guy that became senior designer for Ratchet and Clank, and the lead designer for the multiplayer of Resistance: Fall of Man, saying this stuff isn't exactly accurate across the board. Plus this fellow named Hideki Kamiya. These aren't guys making their first games or working with their first home console. I think their opinions get to count, too.
 
#42
The fact that no third party developer has come out and backed the anon developer is says quite a bit too. So far, everyone has been reporting having different experiences. I'm just curious to get detailed accounts of their experiences developing on the Wii U pre-launch and post-launch. Was great to here the account from a small developer. Now I want to here the accounts from a medium sized development team who has been there before and after launch (StraightRight for instance).
Hoping to be able to fully discuss the development with Mass Effect 3 Special Edition
 
#43
The fact that no third party developer has come out and backed the anon developer is says quite a bit too. So far, everyone has been reporting having different experiences. I'm just curious to get detailed accounts of their experiences developing on the Wii U pre-launch and post-launch. Was great to here the account from a small developer. Now I want to here the accounts from a medium sized development team who has been there before and after launch (StraightRight for instance).Hoping to be able to fully discuss the development with Mass Effect 3 Special Edition
ME3 was a very good port! here look:

A screenshot I took. Even the idiots at digital foundry admitted that the Wii U version looked better than the ps3 one.
Straight Right did say this:
“We’ve really enjoyed working on the Wii U. It’s a powerful, versatile machine and fairly painless to code for. From an architecture standpoint it’s straightforward and really just allows developers to get down to the business of making games.”

http://wiiudaily.com/2012/10/wii-u-developer-wii-u-is-a-powerful-versatile-machine/


 
#44
That's probably the most straightforward quote I've read about developing on the Wii U.
Still going to do the interview to ask some other related and more detailed questions as well as their experiences developing Deus Ex
 

Shoulder

Your Resident Beardy Bear
#45
That's probably the most straightforward quote I've read about developing on the Wii U.
Still going to do the interview to ask some other related and more detailed questions as well as their experiences developing Deus Ex

Looking forward to that one, Ace!
 
#46
CPU has nothing to do with online player count. Wii games had a higher player count than NFS.
Yes, yes it can have something to do with it, particularly when a player is the host. Network code is run on the CPU, and the more players and information there is for the multiplayer, the more it will bog down the CPU. This is well know in the CoD games, and thus why all three next gen consoles need dedicated servers to run their best. Wii versions of games like CoD had lower player counts than their ps360 counterparts partly due to this.
 
#47
I can't speak for what it was like at launch, but I have had no major issues. When I did have a question about something, support got back to me in a timely fashion.

-Mike
We've had a very similar experience :) Nintendo is awesome to work with!
 

EvilTw1n

Even my henchmen think I'm crazy.
Moderator
#48
Yes, yes it can have something to do with it, particularly when a player is the host. Network code is run on the CPU, and the more players and information there is for the multiplayer, the more it will bog down the CPU. This is well know in the CoD games, and thus why all three next gen consoles need dedicated servers to run their best. Wii versions of games like CoD had lower player counts than their ps360 counterparts partly due to this.

Pivoting off of that, here's something that's actually useful from the Secret Developers series:

In most games the major contributors to the frame-rate are:

-Can you simulate all of the action that's happening on the screen - physics, animation, HUD, AI, gameplay etc?
-Can you render all of the action that's happening on the screen - objects, people, environment, visual effects, post effects etc?

The first point relates to all of the things that are usually handled by the CPU and the second point relates to things that are traditionally processed by the GPU.
For COD, the Wii's CPU couldn't quite handle those extra two players.

For a game like NFS:MWU, the CPU would be in charge of car physics and driving characteristics, while the GPU would be responsible for rendering the car and the visual effects put upon it.

Maybe the CPU really is why the Wii U has the lower player NFS player count, then. Sure, the GPU can handle rendering more cars, but the CPU couldn't handle simulating the physics for the extra cars. And Criterion didn't quite have enough time to offload some of those CPU tasks to general processing on the GPU.
 
#49
Maybe the CPU really is why the Wii U has the lower player NFS player count, then. Sure, the GPU can handle rendering more cars, but the CPU couldn't handle simulating the physics for the extra cars. And Criterion didn't quite have enough time to offload some of those CPU tasks to general processing on the GPU.
Yep. That's what I've been saying about NFS and CoD. The teams have harder times converting that high FPU CPU code to Wii U, and invest the time into the graphics and controls instead with (mostly) benefits to us. Treyarch's CPU coding skills from the original Wii are the reason we have nearly everything the other consoles have in terms of online players and other CPU related things in BO2 and Ghosts. Criterion put in their effort, despite EA's imposed time limit and (lack of) confidence in Wii U's capabilities. Along with other devs, such as the Ass Creed 3/4 teams that run admirably both on and offline, these guys all do deserve credit. If these guys had the time and resources they get for other consoles, we'd see even greater gains out of this little CPU that could inside our Wii U's.
 

Goodtwin

Well-Known Member
#50
My only beef with blaming the cpu is that I believe the developer could write code that sticks to the Espresso's strengths. Typically, from what I have read so dont kill me if I am wrong, but I believe the developer can choose to write their code in integer or floating point. The Xenon and Cell had fantastic floating point performance compared to the Espresso, but Integer performance is is where the Espresso would be strong. They are both ways of doing math, but depending on the hardware it will be beneficial to do it one way or the other. Back to my point, if NFS was built ground up for Wii U, they could have easily gotten more than 6 cars online. Even Eurogamers interview hinted at the idea that their is a way to make the Espresso sing, and its not the 360 or PS3 way. Not saying the Espresso is as powerful as those processors, but the optimized code makes things harder.
 
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